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Were The Rebels Illegal Combatants?

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  • Originally posted by Michele View Post
    But the topic of this thread is the status of servicemen, not the status of the belligerent power, and we know very well the two are not closely related. You can be a soldier with a right to POW status if captured, even when you serve an "organized armed group" in a "non-international conflict". This wording only goes back to 1977, but as we have seen upthread, there is a continuity in such a principle dating back to the time frame we're talking about.
    Agreed, but it was brought up as Border trying to claim that the Confederacy was "legitimate"-so its soldiers must have been "legitimate". I've not actually weighed in on the OP, only saying it was an excellent question & I remarked on the Confederate use of the 1862 Partisan Ranger Act.
    The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by hellboy30 View Post
      By INTERNATIONAL LAW, the Confederacy was not a real nation. But we have been down that road before plenty of times as well.
      I believe you are the one trying to lead us down that road. If you want another thread on recognition of the CSA, then start one - or bring up one of the old ones.

      Originally posted by hellboy30 View Post
      Agreed, but it was brought up as Border trying to claim that the Confederacy was "legitimate"
      They had legal standing in international law as a belligerent. Why is that so difficult to understand?
      {}

      "Any story sounds true until someone tells the other side and sets the record straight." -Proverbs 18:17

      Comment


      • Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
        I believe you are the one trying to lead us down that road. If you want another thread on recognition of the CSA, then start one - or bring up one of the old ones.
        And what is the point? You'll ignore it like you do everything else, right? Yes, we've seen this repeatedly in your behavior. You can believe what you want all day, it doesn't really matter to me. However, it was YOU who is trying to draw us down this road & it ends now.


        Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
        They had legal standing in international law as a belligerent. Why is that so difficult to understand?
        No one is having difficulty with that aspect. Trying to make it into something more than it is, is your issue. Why is that so difficult for YOU to understand? As I said, your input is noted & now it is done on that subject. This is me steering this ship back on course.
        The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BorderRuffian View Post
          I believe you are the one trying to lead us down that road. If you want another thread on recognition of the CSA, then start one - or bring up one of the old ones.


          They had legal standing in international law as a belligerent. Why is that so difficult to understand?
          So no follow up to your Gladstone post as I've shown him regretting that statement?

          Par for the course, drive by posting.
          Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MarkV View Post
            I assume he is referring to the one at the end of WW1 in which Britain (and the USA, Japan, France amongst others) definitely intervened.
            Maybe, but ,after all ,this thread is concerned with theAmerican Civil War.

            Enlighten us, please Drusus.
            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
            Samuel Johnson.

            Comment


            • From the OFFICIAL RECORDS I wish to post the following Confederate document which discloses an angle I have been pondering as of late: that the Catahoula Parish Jayhawker combat units in the Saline Swamp region had direct route to the Federal Command and was being used to forward lawful purchased black market Confederate cotton and captured cotton to the said Federals. This would indicate a command system attached to the said jayhawker units. Thusly they were likely legal combatants and should not have been shot down like wild dogs on sight by the Confederates.

              "HEADQUARTERS CAVALRY FORCES FRONT LINES,
              DISTRICT OF WEST LOUISIANA,
              Lodi, April 20, 1865
              Captain J. G. CLARKE,
              Assistant Adjutant General

              Captain ------- Lieutenant Colonel Purves, Third Louisiana Cavalry (CSA), reports having captured a few days since (date not given) five flats with 117 bales of cotton of cotton en route for Vidalia (Mississippi River port Federal control), which he burnt. With the cotton he captured some citizens (number not given) (jayhawkers) and an escaped prisoner (name not given) (another jayhawker or a Federal Army prisoner of war) from Shreveport. He reports a large amount of cotton have gone to the Federals from Catahoula Parish. It went down Big Bayou into Lake Larto, thence into Larto Bayou and the Saline Bayou into Red River below the raft (into Federal control). This ROUTE seems to be a CONTINUAL LINE OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THE JAYHAWKERS AND THE FEDERALS. Colonel Purves has not a sufficient number of men to picket that SYSTEM of bayous and lakes effectively."

              Comment


              • lawful purchased black market Confederate cotton
                Isn't this an oxymoron? How can black market be lawfully purchased?
                Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                  From the OFFICIAL RECORDS I wish to post the following Confederate document which discloses an angle I have been pondering as of late: that the Catahoula Parish Jayhawker combat units in the Saline Swamp region had direct route to the Federal Command and was being used to forward lawful purchased black market Confederate cotton and captured cotton to the said Federals. This would indicate a command system attached to the said jayhawker units. Thusly they were likely legal combatants and should not have been shot down like wild dogs on sight by the Confederates.

                  "HEADQUARTERS CAVALRY FORCES FRONT LINES,
                  DISTRICT OF WEST LOUISIANA,
                  Lodi, April 20, 1865
                  Captain J. G. CLARKE,
                  Assistant Adjutant General

                  Captain ------- Lieutenant Colonel Purves, Third Louisiana Cavalry (CSA), reports having captured a few days since (date not given) five flats with 117 bales of cotton of cotton en route for Vidalia (Mississippi River port Federal control), which he burnt. With the cotton he captured some citizens (number not given) (jayhawkers) and an escaped prisoner (name not given) (another jayhawker or a Federal Army prisoner of war) from Shreveport. He reports a large amount of cotton have gone to the Federals from Catahoula Parish. It went down Big Bayou into Lake Larto, thence into Larto Bayou and the Saline Bayou into Red River below the raft (into Federal control). This ROUTE seems to be a CONTINUAL LINE OF COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THE JAYHAWKERS AND THE FEDERALS. Colonel Purves has not a sufficient number of men to picket that SYSTEM of bayous and lakes effectively."
                  Funny how Jayhawkers become part of the Federal military command and Confederate Partisans are just criminals.
                  Last edited by 101combatvet; 06 Mar 16, 15:09.
                  My worst jump story:
                  My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                  As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                  No lie.

                  ~
                  "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                  -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                    Funny how Jayhawkers become part of the Federal military command and Confederate Partisans are just criminals.
                    That the Confederates themselves determined by repealing the act....something that both Lee & Longstreet fully backed as being wrong.
                    The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.

                    Comment


                    • What was the Confederacy's legal system's definition of a Confederate citizen? Was it determined by place of birth or place of residence? Thus did they regard a man born in Virginia but living in NYS as a citizen of the CSA or the USA? Likewise was a guy from New Jersey working in Georgia an enemy alien?
                      Had anyone actually given thought to such issues when the Confederacy was established?
                      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                      Comment


                      • MarkV

                        Excellent question you ask about the cotton black market within the Confederacy. It is not an oxymoron and here's why: many former Confederate supporter cotton plantation owners across the Confederacy eventually came to the conclusion that in order to maintain their estates they must sell their cotton to the opposition for the only real money available (Federal dollars) which means the black market. A great transformation had just happen upon this dangerous and deadly chosen path as the once loyal Confederate supporter is now an opponent to the Confederacy. It is my contention that this process, repeated across the Confederacy, is as effective as military defeats in destroying the illegal Confederacy. The process can and did involve many variables with possible combinations of corrupted Confederate elites, organized jayhawker units, Department of Revenue Agents, Federal Military army and navy commanders, and of course the cotton plantation owner and his slaves.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bo Archer View Post
                          MarkV

                          Excellent question you ask about the cotton black market within the Confederacy. It is not an oxymoron and here's why: many former Confederate supporter cotton plantation owners across the Confederacy eventually came to the conclusion that in order to maintain their estates they must sell their cotton to the opposition for the only real money available (Federal dollars) which means the black market. A great transformation had just happen upon this dangerous and deadly chosen path as the once loyal Confederate supporter is now an opponent to the Confederacy. It is my contention that this process, repeated across the Confederacy, is as effective as military defeats in destroying the illegal Confederacy. The process can and did involve many variables with possible combinations of corrupted Confederate elites, organized jayhawker units, Department of Revenue Agents, Federal Military army and navy commanders, and of course the cotton plantation owner and his slaves.
                          So from the viewpoint of the Confederacy they were illegal sales and I suspect were also technically so from the Union perspective as breaking the blockade was also illegal.
                          Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                          Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

                          Comment


                          • There were also licensed agents approved by the highest levels (Lincoln for one) that could buy cotton behind the Confederate lines. Some Confederate department heads also approved some trade in cotton with the Yankees. When the Red River Campaign started a lot of Confederates brought out cotton in anticipation of these Union agents buying it. There were two problems here. Confederate troops burned it and the US Navy would mark it property of the USN. These roving US Navy parties did not pay for any cotton marked by these labels.

                            Much of the cotton seized never made it to market. The USN retreated down the Red River and found the river level was too low to pass the "Falls" above Alexandria. The Cotton was used as filler to create a partial dam than raised the level of the river so the Union vessels could pass. The Union vessels had dumped all excess weight (like cannon) to lighten the vessels.

                            Many of the Union Cotton agents had very high political connections. Union General Ben Butler had a brother (James Butler) that was involved.

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • Did all Northerners agree with the Jayhawkers murdering innocent civilians? Are perhaps it never actually happened.
                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment


                              • Union troops did commit civil crimes in the war areas. The main problem was the commanding officers ignored the crimes. If the official troops were allowed to "play" who would the Jayhawkers answer to?

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                                Comment

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