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Court Martial: James Longstreet.

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  • Originally posted by semperpietas View Post
    He fell from grace due to his politics after the war. When the war ended he was still second-in-command of the Army of Northern Virginia, as Lee's most trusted subordinates. He ended the war with quite a reputation, one that was scarred and damaged by Jubal A. Early and company after Lee died.
    I have not read the books you suggest. Just today's authors bascily just Wert
    until the other book comes in..

    And to provide context, Wert says Longstreet should only be censured for failing to hide his emotions on the 2nd Day when Lee ordered the attack against Longstreet's advise.
    It goes a lots further than that. If you expect a decent discussion I would suggest
    you read from chapter 12 to the finish of the 3rd day in Wert's book to refresh yourself



    And for clarity, in a an academic world, there is a difference between being untruthful and incorrect or lacking supporting evidence. Untruthful means a deliberate lie or falsification of evidence which is at no point acceptable to a historian (or an historian in training like myself). Jubal Early and Pendleton lied and distorted the historical record because they had an agenda and saw Longstreet as a threat to that agenda. They are not historians. However, some historians may offer an assertion or conclusion that I, if I hold evidence that counters it, can challenge. What I am saying is that Hay and Sangers' assertion that Longstreet needed Lee to be an effective field commander is not accurate or supported by evidence, given that Longstreet contributed greatly to such victories as Blackburn's Ford and Chickamauga where Lee was not present. They may have reason and evidence for making an assertion, but I have evidence that supports my counterpoint.[/QUOTE]

    Then I would say you think Wert's book are lies. That is not true.

    If the list of books you deny says the same thing that Wert does then
    you will have to put him in with those other authors.
    Wert says Longstreet should have been courts martial.
    In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength.
    Robert E. Lee

    Comment


    • Originally posted by cici View Post
      Chase,

      About the Sanger and Hay Longstreet biography. It has been awhile and I may be wrong on the details, but I remember that book being sympathetic to Longstreet. Sanger, who was a a Colonel in the Army wrote the part on Longstreet from his birth through the Civil War. Thomas Hay wrote the post war part of the biography.

      Sanger never asserts that Longstreet needed Lee. He points out that Longstreet did well outside of Lee and points to Chickamauga and Williamsburg as examples of that. Sanger and Hay do point out that Longstreet's best work came under Lee, which makes sense considering he spent good part of his career under Lee.

      Because this was not a true collaborative effort, there are some discrepancies between Hay and Sanger. Sanger for the most part defends Longstreet's conduct in Knoxville and leaves open the question of whether Longstreet would have succeeded in independent command. Hay believes Longstreet to be an excellent corps commander, but does not believe he would have been a good army commander.

      It was Sanger who actually walked the route of Longstreet's march at Gettysburg and using the times it takes to march two Divisions of men came to the conclusion that Longstreet could not have attacked much sooner than he did on July 2nd. Both Sanger and Hay in separate reviews of the H.J. Eckenrode and Bryan Conrad's biography of Longstreet rip it pretty hard for being biased and relying to much on Early, Pendleton and the SHSP for their work. So I would consider both of them to be in the Longstreet camp. Marshall would be disappointed.

      But, I could be wrong because his reading of Wert's bio on Longstreet does not square with what I have read from Wert (or anyone else for that matter) on Longstreet. Wert considers Longstreet to be the best Corp commander of the war. And if I remember correctly (it has been a long time), I believe Sanger did too. I think Hay believed Longstreet to be a very capable corp commander, but I believe he thought Jackson was better.

      As for Marshall's contention that Longstreet's reputation was going South during the war, he is sadly mistaken (nothing new there). The two most popular books to appear on the Civil War that came out before Lee's death, William Swinton's book on the Civil War and Edward Pollard's Lee and His Lieutenants were very positive in their appraisal of Longstreet. That was the norm with what was written in the period from 1865-1872. It was with Lee's death that the opening salvo was fired at Longstreet by Pendleton and repeated by Early that Longstreet's disobeyed orders at Gettysburg by failing to attack at dawn as ordered by Lee. It was a bald face lie that even members of Lee's staff, Marshall, Taylor, etc would refuse to vouch for even after the war of words got quite nasty. Longstreet did not respond to their assertions for nearly two years.
      I am tired of your continuous accusations. Go back and refresh yourself with
      Wert from chapter 12 until the 3rd day and tell me then what you have read.
      Just be honest about.
      In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength.
      Robert E. Lee

      Comment


      • Originally posted by B7B Southern View Post
        I have not read the books you suggest. Just today's authors bascily just Wert
        until the other book comes in..



        It goes a lots further than that. If you expect a decent discussion I would suggest
        you read from chapter 12 to the finish of the 3rd day in Wert's book to refresh yourself


        [B]Then I would say you think Wert's book are lies. That is not true.

        If the list of books you deny says the same thing that Wert does then
        you will have to put him in with those other authors.
        Wert says Longstreet should have been courts martial.
        First of all, I dont think Wert book is full of lies. Wert is a very well researched book and is the definitive book on Longstreet. It also does not support the conclusions you say it does. If I didn't know any better I would say you were being less than honest here. You have misrepresented my post to the point of absurdity. Wert does not support the assertion that Longstreet required Lee to be successful.

        Page number where Wert says Longstreet deserved court martial for Gettysburg? I will save you the trouble. Wert does not say that, or anything of the sort. That is false, and to say so is to perpetuate falsehood. You have not read Wert's book if you say that, or at least you have not correctly comprehended the meaning of Wert's work.

        I have Wert's Book right here in my hand. I suggest that you read pages 288-296.

        A particular passage comes to mind on page 287, Paragraph 2:
        Despite his ill disposition, however, Longstreet attended to his duty, overseeing in particular the arrangement of Pickett's brigades and the corps artillery; and when the time came, he inspired the troops by personal example. At one point in the morning he told Lee that he and his staff "had been more particular in giving the orders than ever before," conferring with unit commanders and designating the point of attack. He may have been too parochial in attending to his men and may have neglected his wider responsibility for Hill's units. The failure to address the tactical problems of the left wing deserves criticism, but this failure should be shared with Lee and Hill. As Porter Alexander remarked about the situation, Lee's "not interfering with it stamps his approval." Like the day before, Longstreet did as ordered but without spirit and with grave concerns
        Last edited by semperpietas; 31 Oct 12, 08:00.
        "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

        Pyrrhus Travels West:
        Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

        Comment


        • Originally posted by semperpietas View Post
          First of all, I dont think Wert book is full of lies. Wert is a very well researched book and is the definitive book on Longstreet. It also does not support the conclusions you say it does. If I didn't know any better I would say you were being less than honest here. You have misrepresented my post to the point of absurdity. Wert does not support the assertion that Longstreet required Lee to be successful.

          Page number where Wert says Longstreet deserved court martial for Gettysburg? I will save you the trouble. Wert does not say that, or anything of the sort. That is false, and to say so is to perpetuate falsehood. You have not read Wert's book if you say that, or at least you have not correctly comprehended the meaning of Wert's work.

          I have Wert's Book right here in my hand. I suggest that you read pages 288-296.

          A particular passage comes to mind on page 287, Paragraph 2:
          Read from the beginning of the 12th chapter to page 285 if it isn't asking
          too much from you. That section is solidly a cause for a courts martial
          Please lay off the personal attacks. It would be
          greatly appreciated if you don't mind.

          And about the Lee part you suggested, I have said Longstreet can operate
          with great reliability when under a General, Lee or whomever.
          1st Manassas was the beginning of Longstreets problems brought on by
          himself. He lost enough men there to weaken his line and the reserve was
          none other than General Early that pulled him out of the fire and then
          lied he didn't asked for help even after Early praised him in his report!
          That is in Wert's book.

          I will say this again and again, he was an excellent soldier that did
          a terrific job for the commanding Generals. He couldn't handle an army on his own.

          And he should have been courts martial-ed for his behavior at Gettysburg.
          In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength.
          Robert E. Lee

          Comment


          • Originally posted by B7B Southern View Post
            Read from the beginning of the 12th chapter to page 285 if it isn't asking
            too much from you. That section is solidly a cause for a courts martial
            Please lay off the personal attacks. It would be
            greatly appreciated if you don't mind.

            And about the Lee part you suggested, I have said Longstreet can operate
            with great reliability when under a General, Lee or whomever.
            1st Manassas was the beginning of Longstreets problems brought on by
            himself. He lost enough men there to weaken his line and the reserve was
            none other than General Early that pulled him out of the fire and then
            lied he didn't asked for help even after Early praised him in his report!
            That is in Wert's book.

            I will say this again and again, he was an excellent soldier that did
            a terrific job for the commanding Generals. He couldn't handle an army on his own.

            And he should have been courts martial-ed for his behavior at Gettysburg.
            1. You misrepresented my post and you are now dodging. Nothing personal about it.

            2. I have posted page numbers and even posted a paragraph that Wert himself lays out. What he says is in total opposition to what you have posted. There is no case for a court martial at all. You can repeat "Chapter 12 to 285" all you want. I posted the exact page number and paragraph. You have ducked and dodged.

            3. I would seriously reread about the battle of Blackburn's Ford if I were you. Wert Page 69 for starters. Longstreet directing his brigade repulsed multiple attacks. His demonstrated tactical excellence in the deployment of his brigade and the position he placed his regiments. When some of his green Virginians started to break, Longstreet himself went to the line to rally them. In plain clothes (his uniform had not arrived), carrying a sword, and chomping a cigar, Longstreet stabilized his line and rallied the soldiers, who then repulsed the attack. After an attack by Israel Richardson's fresh Federals, Longstreet commited his reserve and then sent a dispatch to Colonel Jubal Early (was not yet a general). Longstreet's line held. Early's brigade came up, and one of Early's regiments (7th Virginia) even fired a volley into the backs of Longstreet's men, forcing Longstreet to dive to ground (almost hitting him).

            By this time Richardson's had been repulsed, Longstreet even ordered two of his regiments to pursue. This movement convinced the Federals to retire.

            Early even said of Longstreet:
            "See as brave, resolute and wise, Longstreet's reputation is a testament to the fact that the success of a great general is not only measured by victory on the hard-fought field, but by the respect and admiration of his comrades-in-arms. I am satisfied he contributed very largely to the repulse of the enemy by his own personal exertions."
            Longstreet didn't lie about asking for help. He said in a private letter to his uncle Augustus:
            I didn't need help.
            (Bold mine). Quite a difference between saying he didn't ask for help or that he didn't need help. Longstreet was being self-congratulatory (given that line came close to breaking also not very accurate) by saying such, but he did not deny (therefore lie) about asking for help.

            4. Longstreet never commanded an army. He only commanded his corps (or in 1862 wing or command) plus at most attached forces in indepedent departments (excepting Chickamauga where he commanded a wing of the Army of Tennessee). So saying he couldn't handle an army on his own is unproveable.

            5. Until you provide evidence, it remains your opinion (which from the poll is clearly the minority).
            Last edited by semperpietas; 31 Oct 12, 19:14.
            "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

            Pyrrhus Travels West:
            Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

            Comment


            • For Clarity:

              Originally posted by B7B Southern View Post
              Wert says Longstreet should have been courts martial.
              Is not true. Wert does not say that in his biography of Longstreet, nor his Biography of Stuart, nor his book on Mosby Rangers, nor of his essays or articles on Longstreet, nor in his books on the Army of Northern Virginia or the Army of the Potomac. I have not found that phrase or wording after a careful search. I therefore must conclude that Wert does not say that and is therefore B7B's statement is false unless he cares to provide a page number and volume backing up his claim.
              Last edited by semperpietas; 31 Oct 12, 09:41.
              "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

              Pyrrhus Travels West:
              Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

              Comment


              • Easy does it gentlemen.
                The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by hellboy30 View Post
                  Easy does it gentlemen.
                  My apologies. I do not mean to disrespect or personally attack B7B. However, I am challenging him on his statement about Wert.
                  "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

                  Pyrrhus Travels West:
                  Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by semperpietas View Post
                    My apologies. I do not mean to disrespect or personally attack B7B. However, I am challenging him on his statement about Wert.
                    You are just not one to follow instructions. This ends it for me.

                    I didn't think I did anything to deserve a reprimand.
                    If I do, then my apology to all.
                    In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength.
                    Robert E. Lee

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by B7B Southern View Post
                      You are just not one to follow instructions. This ends it for me.
                      I am not a subordinate you can order around. I have tried to reasonably and respectfully refute what you say (and what Wert does not say), only to have you counter in a disingenuous manner. And by the way I have posted references from Wert's book which counteract what you say (which you have failed to do by posting references). All I ask is for you post where Wert says that. Which is problematic for you because he doesn't say it. This is just another dodge which isn't surprising considering the source.
                      Last edited by semperpietas; 31 Oct 12, 11:09.
                      "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

                      Pyrrhus Travels West:
                      Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

                      Comment


                      • I have tried to convey my points in a friendly manner and not be hostile.
                        You never checked to see what Wert said but gave out information
                        from your point of view several pages beyond where I quoted the book.

                        You got all worked up over the word Need

                        Definition of need-

                        : necessary duty : obligation
                        2
                        a : a lack of something requisite, desirable, or useful
                        b : a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism
                        3
                        : a condition requiring supply or relief.
                        4
                        : lack of the means of subsistence : poverty

                        Then I said Longstreet didn't want

                        Here is the definition of want.

                        1
                        : to fail to possess especially in customary or required amount : lack <the answer wanted courtesy>
                        2
                        a : to have a strong desire for <wanted a chance to rest>
                        b : to have an inclination to : like <say what you want, he is efficient>
                        3
                        a : to have need of : require <the motor wants a tune-up>
                        b : to suffer from the lack of <thousands still want food and shelter>
                        4
                        : ought —used with the infinitive <you want to be very careful what you say — Claudia Cassidy>
                        5
                        : to wish or demand the presence of
                        6
                        : to hunt or seek in order to apprehend <wanted for murder>

                        Here is what Wert writes about him not wanting, needing help.

                        Wert's Book, "Longstreet". page 72, second paragraph.

                        "His words were certainly self-congratulatory and somewhat inaccurate."
                        Other words. he lied to his uncle.

                        Because he did call for help and Early was called to support him to help
                        hold his line together.
                        In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength.
                        Robert E. Lee

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by B7B Southern View Post
                          I have tried to convey my points in a friendly manner and not be hostile.
                          You never checked to see what Wert said but gave out information
                          from your point of view several pages beyond where I quoted the book.

                          You got all worked up over the word Need

                          Definition of need-

                          : necessary duty : obligation
                          2
                          a : a lack of something requisite, desirable, or useful
                          b : a physiological or psychological requirement for the well-being of an organism
                          3
                          : a condition requiring supply or relief.
                          4
                          : lack of the means of subsistence : poverty

                          Then I said Longstreet didn't want

                          Here is the definition of want.

                          1
                          : to fail to possess especially in customary or required amount : lack <the answer wanted courtesy>
                          2
                          a : to have a strong desire for <wanted a chance to rest>
                          b : to have an inclination to : like <say what you want, he is efficient>
                          3
                          a : to have need of : require <the motor wants a tune-up>
                          b : to suffer from the lack of <thousands still want food and shelter>
                          4
                          : ought —used with the infinitive <you want to be very careful what you say — Claudia Cassidy>
                          5
                          : to wish or demand the presence of
                          6
                          : to hunt or seek in order to apprehend <wanted for murder>

                          Here is what Wert writes about him not wanting, needing help.

                          Wert's Book, "Longstreet". page 72, second paragraph.

                          "His words were certainly self-congratulatory and somewhat inaccurate."
                          Other words. he lied to his uncle.

                          Because he did call for help and Early was called to support him to help
                          hold his line together.
                          I quoted from Wert's Book. I gave a page number. I did not get worked up over the word need, and if you think I did, you are sadly mistaken. You are being disingenuous about the meaning of my posts.

                          Longstreet wrote to his uncle in a private letter. It wasn't published. It was a few weeks after the battle. He told his uncle he didn't need help. Was it possibly a retrospective that Early's reinforcements were not needed after all? Longstreet did however call for them. On the other-hand he could have been bragging in a letter to his uncle. It does not make it a lie. He still handled his brigade very well and held even with Early's men almost killing him and firing into the backs of his own brigade. He even managed a limited pursuit.

                          I can argue with you about semantics all day long. However, to do so would be take away from the fact that you falsely stated that Wert said Longstreet should be court martial-led. You have yet to respond to that. I do howoever, expect more of this from you given your duck and dodge responses so far:

                          Last edited by semperpietas; 31 Oct 12, 12:55.
                          "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

                          Pyrrhus Travels West:
                          Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by semperpietas View Post
                            I quoted from Wert's Book. I gave a page number. I did not get worked up over the word need, and if you think I did, you are sadly mistaken. You are being disingenuous about the meaning of my posts.

                            Longstreet wrote to his uncle in a private letter. It wasn't published. It was a few weeks after the battle. He told his uncle he didn't need help. Was it possibly a retrospective that Early's reinforcements were not needed after all? Longstreet did however call for them. On the other-hand he could have been bragging in a letter to his uncle. It does not make it a lie. He still handled his brigade very well and held even with Early's men almost killing him and firing into the backs of his own brigade. He even managed a limited pursuit.

                            I can argue with you about semantics all day long. However, to do so would be take away from the fact that you falsely stated that Wert said Longstreet should be court martial-led. You have yet to respond to that. I do howoever, expect more of this from you given your duck and dodge responses so far:

                            I haven't got to that part yet. Just be patient.
                            In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength.
                            Robert E. Lee

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by B7B Southern View Post
                              I haven't got to that part yet. Just be patient.
                              You have had since 7:28 this morning forum time to do so. In between then you tried to deflect with three responses unrelated and tried to drag this offtopic with a post about Longstreet's performance at Blackburn's Ford. I can wait to see what you come up with myself.
                              "Hit hard when you start, but don't start until you have everything ready." - Lt. Gen. James Longstreet

                              Pyrrhus Travels West:
                              Hanno the Infamous, General of Carthage, Rb Mhnt of Sicily

                              Comment


                              • Sorry to be slow Marshall. We lost service because of Sandy....the storm, not the Child Bride.

                                As was pointed out Lee failed to get Pickett up as he was completely responsible for which was the direct cause of the delay in launching the attack on July 3.

                                Regards,
                                Dennis
                                If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

                                Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

                                Comment

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