Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Conflict between Indian tribes often overlooked by those interested in this period

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Conflict between Indian tribes often overlooked by those interested in this period

    When many talk about the Indian Wars of the post-Civil War period, they see it as an "all-the Indians" vs "all the whites" struggle.

    But the wars were more complicated than that. In most of them, the American army relied on Indian allies. The northern plains wars, of which the Little Big Horn was a big part, pitted the Lakota and Cheyenne not only against the army, but against the Crows and some Arapahos.

    Once a fellow said in regard to Custer, "The natives killed him." I replied that the natives of the Powder River Country were the Crow. According to the Crow, foreigners from the Dakotas killed Custer.

    The tribes were in battle with each other over territory, much like the Europeans. Tribes wanted exclusive hunting rights, Europeans thought of mining and farming. The Crow had been pressured by the Lakota for generations. Crow scouts were loaned to Custer prior to the Little Big Horn by Col. Gibbon of the Montana Column. In addition, General Crook, leading the Wyoming column had about 300 Crow and Arapaho warriors with him. It a case of, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
    No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends John 15:13

  • #2
    There were Arapaho in the Camp on the Little Bighorn. They fought with their Cheyenne allies. Of course there were only four... Shoshone fought at the Rosebud and may have prevented worse casualties among the Crook's Troops there.

    Just about every Tribe had Indian enemies. These were the important foes! Battling the White Eyes was more of a recreational activity until the Cavalry found winter camps! Then they killed the women, children and elderly. The Comanche for instance had a hatred for Karankawa. It seems the Kronks caught a Comanche and ritually ate him!

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      Not just in the West but East in what was the first Wild West as well. The Erie tribe was wiped out by their friendly neighbors even before contact with Europeans
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Iroquoian speaking neighbors of the Six Nations were almost wiped out. Finally the Susquehanna Tribe tried to move to Massachusetts to get some distance between them and they were refused entry into the colony!

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          The tribal relationships ...

          ... on the Plains already owed a great deal to European/First Nation interaction; specifically French/Canadien involvement. The Siouan Crow & Lakota were forced onto the Plains from points in the more verdant northeast; they'd been defeated in war by more powerful Anishinaabe tribes i.e. the Algonquian Ojibwa, Cree et. al. The Anishinaabe were long standing French/Canadien allies in the Fur Trade, more lucrative and important in the 17th-18th centuries than mining & farming. Anishinaabe/French/Canadien forces had likewise earlier been in conflict with the Haudenosaunee i.e. the Five Nations Iroquois Confederacy, and European English/British/Bastonais further east, over local as well as European issues.

          Defeated and forced out, the Siouan Lakota & Crow gave up the canoe for the horse, conflict between themselves and the Cheyenne, and Arapaho (ironically, both Algonquian tribes) and established Plains tribes were the result, standing animosities and grievances to be exploited many years later by the US Army where possible. I use language groups to differentiate between tribes, that doesn't mean that members within the groups were mutually intelligible at first contact, in most cases they were not.

          Originally posted by MontanaKid View Post
          When many talk about the Indian Wars of the post-Civil War period, they see it as an "all-the Indians" vs "all the whites" struggle.

          But the wars were more complicated than that. In most of them, the American army relied on Indian allies. The northern plains wars, of which the Little Big Horn was a big part, pitted the Lakota and Cheyenne not only against the army, but against the Crows and some Arapahos.

          Once a fellow said in regard to Custer, "The natives killed him." I replied that the natives of the Powder River Country were the Crow. According to the Crow, foreigners from the Dakotas killed Custer.

          The tribes were in battle with each other over territory, much like the Europeans. Tribes wanted exclusive hunting rights, Europeans thought of mining and farming. The Crow had been pressured by the Lakota for generations. Crow scouts were loaned to Custer prior to the Little Big Horn by Col. Gibbon of the Montana Column. In addition, General Crook, leading the Wyoming column had about 300 Crow and Arapaho warriors with him. It a case of, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
          "I am Groot"
          - Groot

          Comment


          • #6
            The Cheyenne were also pushed out of the woods to the Missouri River Valley in the Black Hills. The Dakota then pushed them out of this area. The Comanche followed the edge of the Rockies from Wyoming (they were part of the Snake nation). They moved into prime Buffalo country in West Kansas, and the Panhandles of Oklahoma and Texas. Their war parties would raid down into Mexico (where the horses were!). It is said the Kiowa and Kiowa Apaches made it as far as the Yucatan on one raid! They described Monkeys and that is the only place that had them!

            The accumulation of horses allowed the Comanche and their allies to almost wipe out the Apache clans on the Great Plains. The Apache had taken control of trade in South Texas from the locals. Economic warfare!

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #7
              Lot of good stuff here. Thanks everyone for responding.
              No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends John 15:13

              Comment


              • #8
                The Crow scouts seem to get the most recognition and yet several of them were young with little experience. Curly, for instance.

                On the other hand, there were several more seasoned scouts that seem to have fallen into the footnotes of history. I'm thinking of Sgt. Bobtail Bull but there were others. I've found conflicting information about Sgt. Bull. Find A Gave lists his birth year as 1856 but then says he was about 45-years-old. I can't determine his age from from the one photo I've found of him.

                https://northdakota365.wordpress.com...-u-s-soldiers/

                Scroll down. Sgt. Bull is in a photo wearing a dark coat.
                Last edited by KRJ; 08 Apr 16, 09:57.
                "Shoot for the epaulets, boys! Shoot for the epaulets!" - Daniel Morgan

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KRJ View Post
                  The Crow scouts seem to get the most recognition and yet several of them were young with little experience. Curly, for instance.

                  On the other hand, there were several more seasoned scouts that seem to have fallen into the footnotes of history. I'm thinking of Sgt. Bobtail Bull but there were others. I've found conflicting information about Sgt. Bull. Find A Gave lists his birth year as 1856 but then says he was about 45-years-old. I can't determine his age from from the one photo I've found of him.

                  https://northdakota365.wordpress.com...-u-s-soldiers/

                  Scroll down. Sgt. Bull is in a photo wearing a dark coat.
                  Curley may have had no previous experience serving the U.S. Army. But remember that boys in the plains tribes assume the duties and responsibilities of manhood as young teenagers. Curley had the skills of a warrior and, in relevance to his use as a scout, knew the Powder River Country pretty well.
                  No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends John 15:13

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Overlooked by some, but anyone that has ever thought about it, knows Native Americans did not just become warrior cultures with the arrival of Europeans. We don't really know just how much fighting took place between tribes, because they still had not developed complex written expression, and history was told in oral traditions, so much was lost with the passing of generations. I mean how many of us know the personal stories of our Great, or even Great Great grandfathers. If it's anything like Native American Culture when Europeans started writing stuff that they did to each other, we can probably conclude just like Western Civilization, it was not all hunky-dory, peaceful hippie bull crap Hollywood keeps shoving down our eye-holes, and the arrival of the new, bigger, stronger European Tribes, likely just set into overdrive, like Bears fighting over fewer and fewer fishing spots.
                    As for Custer being lead to his death by his scouts, their is some truth to that. Scouts were their for profit and revenge. For instance, Custers lead scout and most trusted scout Bloody Knife's brother, was horrifically tortured and murdered by life long sociopath Chief Gall and his torture and rape buddies, they also had a bounty on Bloody Knife himself. They also stood to profit from the 7th attacking the camp before the other columns got their so they would be the only ones to "procure the best of the village pony heard they could sell.
                    Now Custer had been on the plains enough to know the motivations of Indian scouts and agents, but they did make a reasoned argument in advising him to attack the village that morning, when Custer wanted to wait to to recon a little more, and give the slower columns a chance to close in a little more. I still say, knowing what Custer knew, he had no choice but to attack, if he didn't, as far has he could assume based on the information he had, they were going to escape, and Grant and Sheridan would put all the blame squarely on him, for political revenge.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The opening scene from John Ford’s Stagecoach has a scout reporting to a Cavalry officer about Geronimo breaking out and attacking ranches and such and the officer asks did the scout see the Apache war band and the scout says no but he has and points to an Indian and this guy looks like he stepped off a nickel and the officer asks “Can we trust him?” and the scout answers “Him? He’s a Cheyenne; they hate the Apache worst than we do!”

                      The aboriginal tribes and nations of the Americas have fought against each other over land and other assets since the beginning of time and some have harden into permanent animosities that resonate to this day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Makes sense to this simple soul, the natives happily slaughtering each other, for land, rape, loot and wotnot...
                        then us Palefaces turned up with a much bigger stick than theirs and nicked the whole kitten caboodle.

                        The long toll of the brave
                        Is not lost in darkness
                        Over the fruitful earth
                        And athwart the seas
                        Hath passed the light of noble deeds
                        Unquenchable forever.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FluffyBunnyFeet View Post
                          Overlooked by some, but anyone that has ever thought about it, knows Native Americans did not just become warrior cultures with the arrival of Europeans. We don't really know just how much fighting took place between tribes, because they still had not developed complex written expression, and history was told in oral traditions, so much was lost with the passing of generations. I mean how many of us know the personal stories of our Great, or even Great Great grandfathers. If it's anything like Native American Culture when Europeans started writing stuff that they did to each other, we can probably conclude just like Western Civilization, it was not all hunky-dory, peaceful hippie bull crap Hollywood keeps shoving down our eye-holes, and the arrival of the new, bigger, stronger European Tribes, likely just set into overdrive, like Bears fighting over fewer and fewer fishing spots.
                          As for Custer being lead to his death by his scouts, their is some truth to that. Scouts were their for profit and revenge. For instance, Custers lead scout and most trusted scout Bloody Knife's brother, was horrifically tortured and murdered by life long sociopath Chief Gall and his torture and rape buddies, they also had a bounty on Bloody Knife himself. They also stood to profit from the 7th attacking the camp before the other columns got their so they would be the only ones to "procure the best of the village pony heard they could sell.
                          Now Custer had been on the plains enough to know the motivations of Indian scouts and agents, but they did make a reasoned argument in advising him to attack the village that morning, when Custer wanted to wait to to recon a little more, and give the slower columns a chance to close in a little more. I still say, knowing what Custer knew, he had no choice but to attack, if he didn't, as far has he could assume based on the information he had, they were going to escape, and Grant and Sheridan would put all the blame squarely on him, for political revenge.
                          From the Atlantic to the Pacific many tribes had a long history of war fare long before the European contact.
                          The Hudson's Bay Company kept excellent records of furs collected and items bought in return.
                          The Home Guard Cree bought short barrel muskets, latter rifles to hunt moose near by @ York Factory / Moose Factory due to the dense Boreal Forest environment. While the Native Tribes on the Great Plains bought long barrel muskets, latter long barrel rifles to kill other Indians.
                          The Assiniboine continued to hunt Buffalo using pounds which funneled them into a killing zone dispatching them w/ Bow & Arrow even long after the horse had been traded preferring to use the long barrel rifle on the Great Plains to War with one another.
                          The Small Pox Epidemic of 1836-1840 @ Fort Union probably killed more Plains Indians than war though and it may have been intentional?
                          The Tainted Gift: (The Disease Method of Expansion) by Barbara Alice Mann,
                          Rotting Face: (Small Pox & The American Indian) by R.G.Robertson.
                          William Todd HBC Fur Trader & Doctor anticipated the problem & obtained a fresh supply of Cow Pox Vaccine from England.
                          http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/todd_...m_1851_8E.html
                          Biological War Fare is not new but it is a part of why today the Cree and Ojibway occupy the territory that once was dominanted by Plains Indian Tribes like: Assiniboine, Dakota, Sioux, etc. maps of the Great Plains from the HBC Archives can show the changes in the tribes over time.

                          Regards, Patrick

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am reading a book on Edward Curtis by Timothy Egan. Curtis spent time with the Crow Tribe and tramped the Little Bighorn Battlesite with three Crow Scouts that had been there with Custer. They showed him where Custer got off his horse and sat and watched Reno get beaten on. He might have enjoyed the spectacle because he sat for 45 minutes! Then he got up and released the Crows while he rode down to the village. If he had went in with his Battalion, Custer had a chance to "win" the battle.

                            Curtis was shown where the Troop Custer sent down to cross the river. Contrary to some reports, it was easy to get to and easy to cross. Curtis also interviewed Dakotas that had been in the fight. He could not believe how people could spin the battle the way it was spun. Curtis found out Dakota women had pierced Custer's eardrums with an awl. This makes me believe the women also cut him up as well. You don't stop once you stuck a corpse with a awl.

                            When Curtis reported this new information to the Military and President Roosevelt, Libby Custer found out what he had written and flew into a rage. Curtis was persuaded to sit on the report. Libby Custer was a Hellcat when aroused!

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Massacre at Sacred Ridge sparks debate about prehistoric genocide

                              http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogsp...l#.VxBYlPkrKUk
                              We hunt the hunters

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X