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The American Revolution: Not a Just War

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  • The American Revolution: Not a Just War

    Hi

    I've no real POV on this matter, though I'm sure the last sentence of this abstract will incur some wrath. I found the article 'interesting'

    Was the American Revolution a just war? Did it adhere to the accepted standards for determining a just war? This article evaluates the American situation in the 1770s, including the Americans’ claims to be Englishmen, the level of taxation in the colonies, their level of freedom, and the violence perpetrated by American colonists. It also investigates the validity of the primary American argument – no taxation without representation. The reporting of key events and American propaganda is explored along with its significance for the overall question. Finally, this article evaluates the American Revolution in light of standard just war rules. The conclusion of this article is negative: the American colonists did not, overall, fight a just war
    .
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...0.2015.1035947

    Regards

    Andy H
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

    "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

  • #2
    The issue I've always had with the just war theory is that it is entirely relative and unenforceable. If everyone agreed on what was and wasn't just there would be no war in the first place.

    The Germans thought their war was just. After all they were just trying to reclaim the Danzig corridor and parts of West Prussia that had been German for centuries before 1918. It sort of snowballed out of control after that.

    The Japanese were only fighting to take what was wrongly denied to them at Versailles and later to escape from an embargo that was strangling them.

    Saddam was only trying to reclaim the 19th province of Iraq after the locals had been stealing his nation's oil.

    The Islamic State is fighting the very definition of a just war in their eyes since they're only doing what their false prophet told them to.

    See how easy this is? Often what is just is decided after the fact, usually by the winner. I don't mean to say that the only war crime is losing or anything like that. There is almost always an absolute right and wrong to most situations but trying to convince people of that, much less enforce it is extremely difficult and is often what causes wars in the first place.
    "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

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    • #3
      Well, had there been no revolution at all I'm of the opinion that the United States' fate probably would have mirrored Canada's, albeit on an accelerated timetable. They would have gained autonomy and finally outright independence one way or another, the question is how soon.
      Divine Mercy Sunday: 4/21/2020 (https://www.thedivinemercy.org/message) The Miracle of Lanciano: Jesus' Real Presence (https://web.archive.org/web/20060831...fcontents.html)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
        The issue I've always had with the just war theory is that it is entirely relative and unenforceable. If everyone agreed on what was and wasn't just there would be no war in the first place.

        The Germans thought their war was just. After all they were just trying to reclaim the Danzig corridor and parts of West Prussia that had been German for centuries before 1918. It sort of snowballed out of control after that.

        The Japanese were only fighting to take what was wrongly denied to them at Versailles and later to escape from an embargo that was strangling them.

        Saddam was only trying to reclaim the 19th province of Iraq after the locals had been stealing his nation's oil.

        The Islamic State is fighting the very definition of a just war in their eyes since they're only doing what their false prophet told them to.

        See how easy this is? Often what is just is decided after the fact, usually by the winner. I don't mean to say that the only war crime is losing or anything like that. There is almost always an absolute right and wrong to most situations but trying to convince people of that, much less enforce it is extremely difficult and is often what causes wars in the first place.
        No its only simple for the very simple. Go and read the definitions of a just war and if you don't wear your finger out doing this come back and post again.
        Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
        Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MarkV View Post
          No its only simple for the very simple. Go and read the definitions of a just war and if you don't wear your finger out doing this come back and post again.
          You're missing my entire point. Who's to say that definition of just is correct? Note importantly who is going to follow it when it goes against their national interests? These sort of things only last as long as they are convenient and serve the interests of the powers that create them.
          "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by BobTheBarbarian View Post
            Well, had there been no revolution at all I'm of the opinion that the United States' fate probably would have mirrored Canada's, albeit on an accelerated timetable. They would have gained autonomy and finally outright independence one way or another, the question is how soon.
            And strangely many in the United States are still intrigued with the British Royal Family, if only as celebrities. It's interesting to speculate on the what if. Since both Canada and the eastern United States were British, I suppose an argument could be made that we would be joined in a north American constitutional monarchy. But of course what of the western US? Would The Louisiana Territory be taken over by Britain? Probably yes, as a spoil of the war with Napoleon. What of the Southwest US? Would Britain have gone to war with Mexico to gain Texas, California et. al.? How about slavery? Would Britain have abolished it if British plantation owners were still taking advantage of slave labor for the cotton trade?
            No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends John 15:13

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer
              Its hard to imagine any force that opposed the British Empire not having right on their side. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan may in fact be the only exceptions.
              Well for a start, the British Empire banned slavery long before the US did - and it didn't take a Civil War to do it.
              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
              Samuel Johnson.

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              • #8
                It's always been the fact that the off-shore middle class Anglo's were just a bunch of smuggling, tax dodging freeloaders.

                They were protected with British blood and gold, then expected to carry on as if nothing happened whilst their other Anglo's are squeezed tightly to pay for their liberty....And they 'the off-shore middle class Anglo's' called it 'tyranny'.... Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin and Tojo had nothing on us Brit's!

                Paul
                ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                All human ills he can subdue,
                Or with a bauble or medal
                Can win mans heart for you;
                And many a blessing know to stew
                To make a megloamaniac bright;
                Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                The Pixie is a little shite.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                  It's always been the fact that the off-shore middle class Anglo's were just a bunch of smuggling, tax dodging freeloaders.

                  They were protected with British blood and gold, then expected to carry on as if nothing happened whilst their other Anglo's are squeezed tightly to pay for their liberty....And they 'the off-shore middle class Anglo's' called it 'tyranny'.... Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin and Tojo had nothing on us Brit's!

                  Paul
                  True enough, a breed of pirates: but unique ?
                  "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                  Samuel Johnson.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BELGRAVE View Post
                    Well for a start, the British Empire banned slavery long before the US did - and it didn't take a Civil War to do it.
                    Check your history: India wasn't freed of the Imperial yoke until after being forced the lose thousands of men in WW2, and they're still trying to get their gems back.

                    The funny thing about the Brits is that you banned enslaving individuals, but thought nothing of enslaving cultures and nations.
                    Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                      Check your history: India wasn't freed of the Imperial yoke until after being forced the lose thousands of men in WW2, and they're still trying to get their gems back.

                      The funny thing about the Brits is that you banned enslaving individuals, but thought nothing of enslaving cultures and nations.
                      "You Banned" Was Belgrave alive and responsible for those things back then was he ?

                      Also India not a nation, it was a lose collection of independent States that were an off shoot from the fading Mughal Empire.

                      Look at this way being a British Empire subject was much better than being an Indian or Black or Hispanic in the USA at the time. Why do you think Canada resisted all Invasion attempts ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer
                        Its hard to imagine any force that opposed the British Empire not having right on their side. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan may in fact be the only exceptions.
                        In no particular order:

                        The Spanish Empire (Including the Inquisition)
                        Imperial and then Revolutionary and then Napoleonic France.
                        Imperial Germany
                        The Ottoman Empire
                        The Russian Empire (Including Serfdom)
                        The Zulu Empire
                        The USA
                        Imperial China
                        The Boers
                        Various Afghan tribes and rulers.
                        The Grand Mufti in Sudan

                        Shows you to be wrong

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by History fan View Post
                          Imperial and then Revolutionary and then Napoleonic France.
                          In order to be historically correct, first it was Royal France (Ancien Regime), then the Revolutionary governments, the Consulate and then Imperial France, the last two being Napoleonic.
                          We are not now that strength which in old days
                          Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                          Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                          To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by History fan View Post
                            The Zulu Empire
                            Because it was guilty of what, being in the way of imperial ambition?

                            Originally posted by History fan View Post
                            Imperial China
                            Right because how dare they resist being flooded with opium?

                            Originally posted by History fan View Post
                            The Boers
                            Again imperial ambition.
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                              Check your history: India wasn't freed of the Imperial yoke until after being forced the lose thousands of men in WW2, and they're still trying to get their gems back.

                              The funny thing about the Brits is that you banned enslaving individuals, but thought nothing of enslaving cultures and nations.
                              Would you like to google 'what was the largest volunteer army of all time'?

                              But lets not get deflected from the OP topic ay!

                              Paul
                              Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 27 Feb 16, 09:31.
                              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                              All human ills he can subdue,
                              Or with a bauble or medal
                              Can win mans heart for you;
                              And many a blessing know to stew
                              To make a megloamaniac bright;
                              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                              The Pixie is a little shite.

                              Comment

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