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Swivel guns on wagons?

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  • #16
    At the time of the Puckle gun, the better alternative for field action would be the 3 pdr gun like a "Grasshopper" or "Butterfly."



    These guns were light enough to be pack horse carried, and even carried by manpower forward. In the field they could fire a solid shot well beyond the effective range of a Puckle gun and with canister would have been equally, if not more effective at close range.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
      At the time of the Puckle gun, the better alternative for field action would be the 3 pdr gun like a "Grasshopper" or "Butterfly."



      These guns were light enough to be pack horse carried, and even carried by manpower forward. In the field they could fire a solid shot well beyond the effective range of a Puckle gun and with canister would have been equally, if not more effective at close range.
      However the gun in the photo is neither contemporaneous with the Puckle nor is it a grasshopper etc.
      It does appear to be a 3 pounder on a Congreve carriage. The Congreve carriage was first developed in India by Mr Congreve and Col. Wellesley (later the Duke of Wellington) and the pole trail became the standard first for British field guns up to 12 pounders and later almost universal up to WW1. It allowed the use of a limber which could carry ammunition and gunners. Grasshopper style equipments had cart shaft type trails which allowed them to be pulled by a single horse without a limber but there was nowhere to carry sufficient ammunition.

      3 pounders were used in the 1813/14 Pyranees stage of the Peninsular War as mountain guns carried by mules. One mule carried the tube, one the carriage minus the wheels, one the wheels and then a string of mules carried the ammunition. However the 3 pounder was found not to pack a big enough punch and was later replaced by the screw gun which allowed the tube to be carried in two sections by two mules.
      Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
      Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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      • #18
        I meant the 3 pdr on the Townsend carriage. These were called "Gallopers" or more commonly "Butterflies" or "Grasshoppers."





        Probably the most famous of these were a pair used in the American Revolution that became known as the "Saratoga Grasshoppers." The British brought them to the Americas. They were captured by the US at Saratoga. The British later recaptured them at Camden and they were subsequently used at Cowpens where the Americans recaptured them a second time. The British then captured them again at Guilford Courthouse.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
          I meant the 3 pdr on the Townsend carriage. These were called "Gallopers" or more commonly "Butterflies" or "Grasshoppers."





          Probably the most famous of these were a pair used in the American Revolution that became known as the "Saratoga Grasshoppers." The British brought them to the Americas. They were captured by the US at Saratoga. The British later recaptured them at Camden and they were subsequently used at Cowpens where the Americans recaptured them a second time. The British then captured them again at Guilford Courthouse.
          Fun fact, according to my mom’s genealogy efforts I had a relative that was a colonial captain who was at cowpens
          the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

          A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
          A man dies and leaves his name,
          A teacher dies and teaches death.
          Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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          • #20
            The grasshopper was an attempt to solve the problem of ‘battalion gun’ which was the desire to have a piece of artillery light enough to be dragged along with (and sometimes by) the infantry but still able to deliver a worthwhile punch. The Swedish king and general Gustavus Adolphus had introduced the concept in the 17th century during the Thirty Years War when he equipped his troops with the famous leather guns. These were actually small built up guns with the iron reinforcing rings replaced with leather shrunk around a wire and rope wrapped barrel (to save weight). They suffered from the usual sins of built up guns but were initially successful, mainly due to the surprise factor. Once this had worn off it soon became clear that they were both dangerous to their own users and fired too small a ball to be really decisive. They were soon replaced with more conventional small cast cannon. The dilemma of the battalion gun was that if it was able to fire a useful weight of shot it was too heavy to be dragged by the infantry and if it were light enough to be dragged it wasn’t worth the effort.The sheer weight of ammunition and the difficulty of heaving it around so that it ends up at the same place as the gun (and at the same time) has always been the underlying weakness of attempts to provide the infantry with a light weapon with a big punch. This was a fatal weakness with the Grasshoppers - there was no way of carrying ammo on the gun and a separate ammo cart was still needed.
            Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
            Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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            • #22
              "even though there is no indication that shaft-trailed 'galloper guns' were employed in that conflict."

              I mis-spoke. Hessian jäger troops in America used support weapons described as 'amusettes;' the Queens's Rangers, too. Opinion seems divided as to whether these were heavy muskets of the wall-gun type, or light field pieces of 1 or 1.5 pdr calibre. If it was the latter (my preference) then there were indeed, shaft-trail guns in use during the AWI, although they may have been drawn by men rather than horses. In the mid C18th Hesse-Kassel seems to have lead in the design of this type of gun carriage; expertise that was exported to Denmark & Norway.

              1-pdr 'amusette' Hesse-Kassel.jpgHessian 1-pdr 'amusette' 1776-83.jpg1786 model of 1766 1-pdr amusette on shaft carriage.jpg
              Last edited by jf42; 01 Sep 18, 06:47.

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              • #23
                Wow! The price is a lot higher than when I bought my copy. But, it gives great info on these guns

                https://www.amazon.com/Grasshoppers-.../dp/0919316743

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                • #24
                  I can't find anything about wagons, but expeditions and fur tappers mounted swivel guns on boats and rafts. Lewis and Clark likewise had one or two.

                  The ammunition was quite light, roughly two to three pounds per round fired depending on the charge. Swivel guns also showed up at trade forts. Once rifles became commonplace they faded away.
                  Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                  • #25
                    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    Wow! The price is a lot higher than when I bought my copy. But, it gives great info on these guns

                    https://www.amazon.com/Grasshoppers-.../dp/0919316743
                    At first I thought this was a link to an actual cannon lol.
                    the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                    A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                    A man dies and leaves his name,
                    A teacher dies and teaches death.
                    Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

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                    • #26
                      Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                      At first I thought this was a link to an actual cannon lol.
                      Muzzle loading cannons are not too expensive, but I've never seen anyone selling a swivel gun.
                      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

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                      • #27
                        Originally posted by General_Jacke View Post
                        At first I thought this was a link to an actual cannon lol.
                        This is what it'll cost you to get one made today...

                        https://southbendreplicas.com/

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                        • #28
                          Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post

                          This is what it'll cost you to get one made today...

                          https://southbendreplicas.com/
                          Ya I have investigated cannon prices in the past
                          the answer is on the floor- john roseberry

                          A tiger dies and leaves his fur,
                          A man dies and leaves his name,
                          A teacher dies and teaches death.
                          Seikchi Toguchi 1917-1998

                          Comment


                          • #29
                            A few images from Caruana, while the change-jar fills

                            Pattinson's Three pounder.jpg
                            Congreve 3-pdr ii.jpgPattinson & Congreve 3-pdr crews.jpg
                            Attached Files

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                            • #30
                              Most of my intial post at #21 seems to have disappeared, and I can't now adjust. Something up with the upload software, I suspect. To make sense of subsequent posts what I wrote, approximately, was:

                              There seems to be regular confusion between the terms 'galloper' and 'grasshopper,' perhaps because of the verbal similarity. The insect theme seems also to have created the assumption that the terms 'grasshopper' and 'butterfly' are interchangeable.

                              The two illustrations posted previously (Above #18) are modern replicas based in a design from John Muller's 1757 A Treatise of Artillery for a gun carriage 'which is called galloper; it serves for a pound and a half gun.This carriage has shafts so as to be drawn without a limber.’ The purpose of the design was to provide a light, mobile gun for battle line support, the key element being the trail formed from a pair of shafts into which a horse could be harnessed directly (i.e. without a limber). Stowage boxes on Muller's carriage allowed for a limited supply of ammunition. He calculated that the construction could support a 3-pdr gun, as indicated in the large image posted by T.A Gardner, which shows a 1970s replica carriage built by Caruana, I believe, and kept at the former Royal Artillery Museum, mounted with a 1756 3-pdr barrel (any ammunition storage capacity would have been reduced proportionately).

                              1.5-pdr Galloper 1757.jpg

                              The Muller design has been used regularly by AWI re-enactor groups and model soldier manufacturers, although there is no indication that shaft-trail guns were used in that conflict [CORRECTION i.e. not as 'gallopers'. And not the Muller design. See post #22]

                              Additional confusion has been caused by a drawing made c 1782 by Captain William Congreve, showing 'The manner of travelling with Lord Townshend's Light 3-pounder as a Galloper'. This arrangement (possibly copied from the French) for attaching shafts to a bracket-trail gun is clearly intended for the line of march and not to give mobility on the battle field, the term 'galloper' referring to the means of attaching a horse without a limber rather than the intended function in battle. Again, there is no indication this proposal was actually used in the field.

                              Lord Townshend's 3-pdr as Galloper.jpg

                              Congreve's thoughts on maximising the ready-use ammunition load on the carriage are interesting

                              Stowage on Townshend Light 3-pdr 1783.jpg

                              The nickname 'butterfly' may have arisen from the impression given when the lids of both stowage lockers were opened on the Congreve /Townsend 3-pdr guns, whereas it has been suggested that 'grasshopper' came from the angular outline of Colonel Pattinson's Light 3-pdr created when carrying shafts were fixed to the carriage for man-packing in the so-called "Irish Mode.' (SEE POST #21)

                              Over and out.

                              Replica Congreve 'Townsend' Light 3-pdr

                              3-pdrs.jpg

                              Grasshopper & Butterfly.jpg



                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by jf42; 02 Sep 18, 12:31. Reason: General Pattinson demoted to Colonel

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