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  • Originally posted by Massena View Post
    That's why I was talking about the historical figure Jesus, not the religious one. The latter is a matter of faith.

    Seconded. And early church documents are more credible than skeptics give them credit for.

    Hebrews, for example, has its date ratified by virtue of the fact that the document is almost completely irrelevant after 70 AD. It had to have been written before then or it wouldn't have been written at all.

    Jesus as a historical figure is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt as is Paul and the early church. Their articles of faith are just that, articles of faith. But they were real people.
    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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    • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
      Actually Native American culture was highly developed. The problems started when colonists brought in smallpox which utterly decimated the population. The Native Americans us British colonists encountered were the shell shocked essentially post apocalyptic survivors of the pandemic.

      Christianity has done good in the Americas. Mexico is definitely better off under Catholicism than it was under Quetzocoatl. But the notion that Native American territory was undeveloped and populated by small patches of tribal cultures surrounded by wilderness is largely a myth. The English exposure to Native Americans was the post disease Fallout version of the culture, not the classical version.
      Bump. Responding to Spike.
      A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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      • Originally posted by jf42 View Post
        Well, the facts are that we have two C11th documents, one a copy of Tacitus' Annals and the other a copy of Josephus' Antiquities. No C1st texts of thes works have survived.

        In any case, neither author was writing contemporaneously with the events of the Ministry or the Passion. Each alludes only to events that could have been gleaned from the Gospels (which contradictory narratives in themselves can hardly be regarded as objective sources and only one of which was written within living memory of the events they claim to record).

        Even if wholly authentic, (which most scholars believe to be the case) both Tacitus and Jospehus record nothing more than what Christians believed in the late C1st; in otherwords, hearsay.

        The evidence for King Arthur is about as solid. Except, of course no one founded a world religion based on King Arthur's life. Well, not really...
        Actually the fact that the narratives are contradictory in some areas is largely irrelevant. This is one of the myths of Biblical skepticism. The truth is that any historical event recounted by more than one person has contradictions. Heck if you take a dozen people here and now and tell them to recount what happened 30 seconds ago you'll get contradictions.

        There is plenty to debate regarding Biblical historicity but the "here's a contradiction, the whole thing must be rubbish" argument is not exactly the strongest leg for skeptics to stand on.
        A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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        • You mean besides the fact that gods are imaginary, right?
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          • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
            Actually Native American culture was highly developed. The problems started when colonists brought in smallpox which utterly decimated the population. The Native Americans us British colonists encountered were the shell shocked essentially post apocalyptic survivors of the pandemic.

            Christianity has done good in the Americas. Mexico is definitely better off under Catholicism than it was under Quetzocoatl. But the notion that Native American territory was undeveloped and populated by small patches of tribal cultures surrounded by wilderness is largely a myth. The English exposure to Native Americans was the post disease Fallout version of the culture, not the classical version.
            Really? They didn't develop the wheel, though they did independently develop the bow along with other cultures that were much more advanced.

            And to which Indian culture are you referring? The Aztecs, the Indians they defeated and enslaved? The Mayans? The Incas? The Woodland Indians of North America? The Plains Indians?

            And what of the other Indian tribes in North America that were constantly at war with one another and those tribes that were destroyed in those tribal wars?

            The Indian cultures of the Americas were not monolithic.

            And how many Woodland and Plains Indians do you believe populated North America when the English, Spanish, and French arrived?
            We are not now that strength which in old days
            Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
            Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
            To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

            Comment


            • Peoples with low populations don't develop technology as quickly as more populous ones. The number of geniuses per generation in a sparsely populated group is naturally lower. Additionally the infrastructure to take advantage of "bright ideas" isn't there either.

              Of course if you're white European you just think they're stupid.
              Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
              Hyperwar, Whats New
              World War II Resources
              The best place in the world to "work".

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              • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                Really? They didn't develop the wheel, though they did independently develop the bow along with other cultures that were much more advanced.

                And to which Indian culture are you referring? The Aztecs, the Indians they defeated and enslaved? The Mayans? The Incas? The Woodland Indians of North America? The Plains Indians?

                And what of the other Indian tribes in North America that were constantly at war with one another and those tribes that were destroyed in those tribal wars?

                The Indian cultures of the Americas were not monolithic.

                And how many Woodland and Plains Indians do you believe populated North America when the English, Spanish, and French arrived?
                I didn't say Native American culture was monolithic. I simply pointed out that it was more developed than pop culture likes to portray. All pre Columbian civilizations had urban centers and higher population density than what English settlers encountered.

                Archaeologists have discovered urban centers in almost every region of the Americas. They may not have developed in the same fashion but not every civ follows Sid Meier's tech tree. Nevertheless there is evidence of urban development and higher population density than what we normally envision.
                Last edited by Pirateship1982; 24 Sep 17, 13:37.
                A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                  You mean besides the fact that gods are imaginary, right?
                  Regardless of whether or not gods are real, their followers are and their stories should be told as truthfully as possible. I won't shove my religion down your throat but I will defend the existence of Jesus as a man and Paul as a church founder. God or no god those were real people with compelling lives.
                  A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                    I didn't say Native American culture was monolithic. I simply pointed out that it was more developed than pop culture likes to portray. All pre Columbian civilizations had urban centers and higher population density than what English settlers encountered.
                    You used 'culture' in the singular, not plural, which would suggest you did believe it to be monolithic.

                    Where were the urban centers for the Iroquois, Algonquins, etc.?

                    You might want to take a look at John White's drawings and engravings of what he saw in Virginia. The Indian villages most certainly don't look like 'urban centers.'
                    We are not now that strength which in old days
                    Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                    Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                    To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                      Regardless of whether or not gods are real, their followers are and their stories should be told as truthfully as possible. I won't shove my religion down your throat but I will defend the existence of Jesus as a man and Paul as a church founder. God or no god those were real people with compelling lives.
                      Which is not at all.
                      Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                      Hyperwar, Whats New
                      World War II Resources
                      The best place in the world to "work".

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Massena View Post
                        You used 'culture' in the singular, not plural, which would suggest you did believe it to be monolithic.

                        Where were the urban centers for the Iroquois, Algonquins, etc.?

                        You might want to take a look at John White's drawings and engravings of what he saw in Virginia. The Indian villages most certainly don't look like 'urban centers.'
                        John White arrived in the Americas in 1585 after the post Columbian population collapse.

                        Our knowledge of urban centers in the Americas comes from archaeological excavation more than colonial encounters. Though it declined before Columbus Cahokia is one such example.

                        I am not well educated on the specific of individual native cultures outside of those in the Southwest which is why I tend to be general but I do recognize that each separate culture is unique and my insistence on their development is based on archaeological record.
                        Last edited by Pirateship1982; 24 Sep 17, 13:56.
                        A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by OpanaPointer View Post
                          Which is not at all.
                          Incorrect. As even extra biblical historical record demonstrates, they were real people. To pretend that they weren't because you don't like religion is pedantic.
                          A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                            Incorrect. As even extra biblical historical record demonstrates, they were real people. To pretend that they weren't because you don't like religion is pedantic.
                            I've seen all the so-called proofs from outside the bible and they don't fly.

                            But I do like that you're not claiming divinity, which dumbs your claim down to "cool stuff some dude said."
                            Hyperwar: World War II on the World Wide Web
                            Hyperwar, Whats New
                            World War II Resources
                            The best place in the world to "work".

                            Comment


                            • Pssst,

                              Originally posted by Massena View Post
                              You used 'culture' in the singular, not plural, which would suggest you did believe it to be monolithic.

                              Where were the urban centers for the Iroquois, Algonquins, etc.?

                              You might want to take a look at John White's drawings and engravings of what he saw in Virginia. The Indian villages most certainly don't look like 'urban centers.'

                              Kevin, the Algonquians were primarily hunter gatherers, but the Iroquoians were agrarian, lived in longhouses within elaborate stockades, males traveling to and from hunting grounds some distance away. They were quite urban in that regard, moving the settlement only when the soil played out.

                              The Wendat/Huron Mantle site wasn't far from me, some 1,500-2,000 inhabitants in its pre-contact, trade center heyday; 95 longhouses on 9 acres, surrounded by palisades. A pre-columbian iron axehead was found there, source was determined to be Basque, probably obtained in trade from fishermen on the Atlantic coast. There's more here:

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle...estral_Village


                              "An 'Indiana Jones' moment: Cosmopolitan village dug up. Big, complex 'New York City' of 500 years ago uncovered by archaeologists in Canada,"
                              http://www.nbcnews.com/id/48135934/n.../#.Wcf422hSzIU


                              Here's the 1300 page final report on the salvage excavation of the site:
                              http://asiheritage.ca/wp-content/upl...nal-Report.pdf

                              "Curse Of The Axe Rewriting American History Documentary"
                              "I am Groot"
                              - Groot

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                              • Originally posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
                                John White arrived in the Americas in 1585 after the post Columbian population collapse.

                                Our knowledge of urban centers in the Americas comes from archaeological excavation more than colonial encounters. Though it declined before Columbus Cahokia is one such example.

                                I am not well educated on the specific of individual native cultures outside of those in the Southwest which is why I tend to be general but I do recognize that each separate culture is unique and my insistence on their development is based on archaeological record.
                                Are you saying, then, that the Indians that were encountered by John White and the other Englishmen had degenerated because of disease?

                                Who was there before White and the other colonists?
                                We are not now that strength which in old days
                                Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
                                Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
                                To strive to seek to find and not to yield.

                                Comment

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