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  • #31
    It is interesting that Maria de Estrada's shouting 'Santiago' should be noted as remarkable.This had after all been the war cry of the Christian Spanish against the Infidel for nigh on 800 years.

    More remarkable, for the period, and indeed in any period, is that, while clearly there were other redoubtable women in the New World, she should have been charging into battle at all, whether as a leader or as a warrior in her own right.

    Although in my opinion, in Spanish culture, women are the force to be reckoned with !

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    • #32
      God and Santiago on side!

      I do believe in the New World lack of numbers spelt doom in many circumstances.

      Every able pair of boots in the field counted,....man or woman.
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      • #33
        There is a Spanish "Fort" in Taiwan that dates to the 1620s. The Spanish were expelled by the Dutch, who in turn were expelled by a Ming Rebel (Coxinga). In 1595 the Governor of the Philippines sent a small expedition of Spanish troops to Cambodia to support a king under fire from rivals. They entered Vietnam by way of what is today South Vietnam's Mekong Delta, probably via Tra Vinh or Soc Trang, both of which still have sizable ethnic Cambodian populations.

        In 1858, the Franco-Spanish punitive expedition initiated what would become the French conquest of Indochina.

        I'm not sure what Spain owes to any of the women warriors, but without Dona Marina, aka La Malinche, the Spanish conquest would never have happened. A Nahuatl speaking Mexica woman sold into slavery to a coastal group by her step-father, she learned the Mayan language, which allowed her to speak with Fray Jeronimo de Aguilar, who had learned Mayan while a slave of the Yucatan Mayas. Cortez picked up Jeronimo de Aguilar, which allowed him to speak through Dona Marina to the Tlaxcalans and other peoples around Tenochtitlan.

        The other surviving Spanish conquistador slave among the Maya, Gonzalo Guerrero, had worked his way out of slavery to become a Yucatan war chief, marrying the daughter of an important Mayan leader. He hid from the Spanish to avoid being taken back to Spain, and was killed some years later leading Mayan troops against the Spanish in what is today Honduras.

        Anyone interested in the Spain of the golden era can do no better than read the Arturo Perez-Reverte novels of the "Capitan Alatriste" series.

        As for the conquest of Mexico or Peru, William Prescott's two works: History of the Conquest of Mexico and History of the Conquest of Peru, remain the very best. Though their organization and prose is 19th Century, they are still the measuring stick for all that have followed.
        dit: Lirelou

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        • #34
          Originally posted by lirelou View Post
          There is a Spanish "Fort" in Taiwan that dates to the 1620s. The Spanish were expelled by the Dutch, who in turn were expelled by a Ming Rebel (Coxinga). In 1595 the Governor of the Philippines sent a small expedition of Spanish troops to Cambodia to support a king under fire from rivals. They entered Vietnam by way of what is today South Vietnam's Mekong Delta, probably via Tra Vinh or Soc Trang, both of which still have sizable ethnic Cambodian populations.

          In 1858, the Franco-Spanish punitive expedition initiated what would become the French conquest of Indochina.

          I'm not sure what Spain owes to any of the women warriors, but without Dona Marina, aka La Malinche, the Spanish conquest would never have happened. A Nahuatl speaking Mexica woman sold into slavery to a coastal group by her step-father, she learned the Mayan language, which allowed her to speak with Fray Jeronimo de Aguilar, who had learned Mayan while a slave of the Yucatan Mayas. Cortez picked up Jeronimo de Aguilar, which allowed him to speak through Dona Marina to the Tlaxcalans and other peoples around Tenochtitlan.

          The other surviving Spanish conquistador slave among the Maya, Gonzalo Guerrero, had worked his way out of slavery to become a Yucatan war chief, marrying the daughter of an important Mayan leader. He hid from the Spanish to avoid being taken back to Spain, and was killed some years later leading Mayan troops against the Spanish in what is today Honduras.

          Anyone interested in the Spain of the golden era can do no better than read the Arturo Perez-Reverte novels of the "Capitan Alatriste" series.

          As for the conquest of Mexico or Peru, William Prescott's two works: History of the Conquest of Mexico and History of the Conquest of Peru, remain the very best. Though their organization and prose is 19th Century, they are still the measuring stick for all that have followed.
          It must be this William Prescott,

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Prescott

          Thanks, its always interesting to hear what a historian of the middle ages up to the 20th century has to say...in comparison to modern day historians. This is not to take away from modern historians.

          Wrt Dona Marina, otherwise known as La Malinche...modern day Mexicans seem to have a divided viewpoint on Marina...some suggest Marina betrayed her people...other say Marina fell for the handsome Hernan Cortes(according to viewpoints of modern day Mexicans interviewed in a Conquistador documentary either shown itt or in another thread) and that no, Marina is not so much of a reviled lady. So based on the documents and writings you have reviewed lirelou, what do you say of Marinas reputation in both Spain and Mexico? And what do you yourself find of Marina...was this woman a sort of hero or villain?



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          • #35
            La Malinche has to be judged in the context of her times. She was from a society where step-children could be sold into slavery with impunity. Where attractive slaves could be present to guests for their sexual pleasure. Among advanced Neolithic peoples who shared a common culture but were divided into warring city states, whose religious views required human sacrifice of men, women, and children. So, given the context, my opinion is that the Mexicans were lucky Cortes found her (and picked up Jeronimo de Aguilar to speak to her).

            That is not the Mexican view which is far more historiographic than historical. Prescott stated that in his time she was still warmly remembered by the locals, however since Prescott never traveled to Mexico himself, that view is likely Frances Inglis's, a friend who authored an authoritative book on "Life in Mexico" which Prescott helped get published.

            Octavio Paz, in El Laberinto de la Soledad" paints an historiographic view of her: "If the Chingada is a representation of the violated Mother, it is appropriate to associate her with the Conquest, which was also a violation, not only in the historical sense but also in the very flesh of Indian women. The symbol of this violation is Doña Malinche, the mistress of Cortés. It is true that she gave herself voluntarily to the conquistador, but he forgot her as soon as her usefulness was over. Doña Marina becomes a figure representing the Indian women who were fascinated, violated, or seduced by the Spaniards. And as a small boy will not forgive his mother if she abandons him to search for his father, the Mexican people have not forgiven La Malinche for her betrayal"

            If you ever travel to Mexico and are interested in serious (as well as popular) books on Mexican history and culture, recommend Libreria Manuel Porrua, S.A. Their flagship was on 5 de Mayo #49, Mexico 1, D.F. but I understand they have branches all over the country. They publish a Nahuatl dictionary (in Spanish) as well as a unique Diccionario de Mejicanismos, which can be found online here: www.academia.org.mx/DiccionarioDeMexicanismos
            dit: Lirelou

            Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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            • #36
              To what extent did Spanish colonial possessions and expeditions reach to the north of the Americas?

              Very roughly and just based on names I would say: to 'San Francisco' on the Pacific Coast and 'Colorado' in the Rockies/prairies and then curving back south towards Texas.

              And while I am at it: what year was the year of its greatest extent?
              My ‘guestimation’ would be late 18th, early 19th century.
              BoRG

              You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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              • #37
                Why Los Angeles was founded after the US

                At the height of Spanish colonial days, they covered from the Tierra del Fuego and southern Chile up to San Francisco. So, California wasn't settled until near the end of the Spanish colonial period in the late 1700s, just when resentment of Spanish control was awakening dreams of independence (1821 for Mexico).

                The first challenge facing the Spanish conquerors was to get north of the Chichimeca desert. Culiacan, which according to one Spanish history was settled by a company of Spaniards leading a troop of Tlaxcalan allies. And thus Culiacan was named by the Tlaxcalans, who were the only nation independent of the Aztecs when the Spanish arrived. (A wiki article on Culiacan disagrees.) The other people mentioned in the conquest of Chichimeca were the Tarascans, who inhabited Michoacan north of the Valley of Mexico. They too were often the Indian contingent of Spanish expeditions north. Prior to the arrival of the Spanish, the Tarascans used weapons and tools made of a copper and tin alloy identical to that of northern Peru, and spoke a language unrelated to other Meso-American tongues.

                Still, it took the Spanish nearly 80 years to pacify the Chichimeca (1590), thereby opening Northern Mexico to settlement by Spanish, Mestizos, and Native American allies over the next two centuries, which given the harshness of the land and relative small number of Native Americans living there, not to mention their opposition to Mexican and European settlement, is what it tool.

                http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ah-presidiomission.html
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                dit: Lirelou

                Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá ǵ!

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