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  • #61
    Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
    Are you guys aware of the harm that the Spanish Missions did to the native population in CA?

    Sometime soon, the House will give final consideration to the California Mission Preservation Act, sponsored by Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., providing $10 million to help restore California's Roman Catholic Missions --
    those historic sites where Franciscan friars and California's Indians supposedly existed in gentle harmony.
    In part, the act describes how "the knowledge and cultural influence of native California Indians made a lasting contribution to the early settlements of California and the development of the California missions." What the bill utterly omits is that locked within the missions is a terrible truth -- that they were little more than concentration camps where California's Indians were beaten, whipped, maimed, burned, tortured and virtually exterminated by the friars.
    The California Indians, as the proposal says, did have a culture, but they never got a chance to contribute it to California. The Spanish crown decreed in the 1760s that the Indians were to be rounded up, baptized into Christianity and their culture destroyed. It was the same policy that Spain had followed in eradicating the complex and advanced cultures of the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs in Latin America.
    In 1769, that near-genocidal policy was launched, under the direction of Father Junipero Serra, with the founding of California's first mission. One scholar, Robert Archibald, has written that the missions were akin to the "forced movement of black people from Africa to the American South." With the help of Spain's soldiers, the Indians were herded to the sites of the missions. Once there, they became slaves, directed by the friars to build the missions. Once within the mission boundaries, they were forever forbidden to leave. No less an authority than the U.S. National Park Service has documented and described the hellish and tragic fate of the California Indians, especially the coastal tribes. They were not warring tribes, but instead gentle harvesters who lived in equilibrium with their land and seashore.
    Their terrible fate at the hands of the Spanish and friars was described by Jean François de Galaup de la Perouse, a French explorer and sea voyager hired by the French government to report on the western coastal areas of North America. In 1786 he visited Mission San Carlos Borromeo in the Monterey area and described the severe punishments inflicted on the Indians. The friars, he determined, considered the Indians "too much a child, too much a slave, too little a man." California historians Walton Bean and James J. Rawls, described La Perouse as likening the missions to the slave plantations of Santo Domingo.
    Yet, the Indians did not easily accede to the cruel mission life. They rebelled several times, in one instance burning nearly all of the buildings of Mission La Purísima in Santa Ynez. Historian Robert F. Heizer attributed the flare-up to the "flogging of a La Purísima neophyte" (as the Indians were called in the missions).
    In the late 1820s, Mexico rebelled against Spain and won its independence. Within a decade, it also declared that the missions had to vest half their property to the Indians while the other half went to the friars and government officials. It was the beginning of the end for the missions. By the late 19th century, the missions were in ruins, abandoned by the friars who could not continue operating them without the slave labor of the Indians, whose numbers had been decimated by hard labor, starvation and disease. It is estimated that California's Indian population was about 310,000 at the beginning of Spanish rule. At the close of the 19th century, they had been reduced to approximately 100,000.

    http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openfo...ns-2685666.php
    Not just California, but a huge chunk of South America, Florida and any other area where Spain showed.

    All "in the name of God", of course.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #62
      I don't think ...

      Originally posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
      Thank you for the extremely informative response. When I was visiting Lundys Lane in Canada....I had the chance to speak with a scholar and the scholar notified me that there is an ongoing attempt to honor the first nations peoples in Niagara Falls, Canada. There are a few monuments dedicated to the war of 1812 in the Lundys Lane area....but as I said the Canadians are in the process of honoring the legacy of the first nations.

      Now I'm not saying that everything was great between the first nations and the European explorers...but what do you feel about my viewpoints itt. Specifically my comments on the relations between the Aztecs and the Spanish Explorers under Hernan Cortes. Cortes did indeed label the Aztecs as rationale people. So do you find that it is OK for me to suggest that both the Aztecs and Spaniards under Cortes were members of an advanced civilization. After all Cortes sailed all the way from Spain...and indeed the Aztecs had extraordinary skill...just look at the various temples the Aztecs built.
      ... one can equate the terms "rational people" and "advanced civilization". The Aztecs, while able to construct large structures from stone, remained just that, a stone age culture. They had no pack animals, and apart from dogs, which they kept for food, had no domesticated mammals for food purposes, and despite some rudimentary metallurgy i.e. gold, they relied on obsidian for tools and weapons i.e. more stone. Their newly found empire collapsed in the face of relatively small numbers of technologically superior enemies from a well established, more stable society.

      Were they advanced? I suppose, like early Rome, they borrowed from earlier and neighbouring societies, and rose to impose their will to become the most dominant civilization, in a land of stone age civilizations. That said, in comparative terms, in many ways they remain on a level lower than the dominant early modern societies/civilizations of Europe, the Far, Middle and Near East of the same period.

      You might want to check out "Collapse - How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" & "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond
      Last edited by Marmat; 17 Nov 16, 18:29.
      "I am Groot"
      - Groot

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      • #63
        "one of the greatest explorers and leaders of all time."

        How is this an objective, proportionate, factual statement?

        Greatest in comparison to- who?

        According to what criteria?

        Says - who?

        Might there be an opposing viewpoint?

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        • #64
          Is "Native" not?

          I do believe the word 'Native" in the term "Native American" may well be obselete

          Maybe we could all be good lexicographers and come up with a brand new way of describing the culture of the peoples of North america prior to the Crown government of Great Britain and Northern Island and their colonies here.

          Maybe...."Pre-Colonial North-Americans" will fit the bill?

          Australian Aboriginal people have been here in this continent for a minmum of 40,000 and a maximum of 80,000 years, Even given that 40,000 does sound a whole lot less than the other figure, it is still 8 TIMES LONGER than the accepted beginnings of 'civilization' itself!

          THAT is INDIGENOUS.

          I'm not so sure that Pre-colonial North Americans can make that same claim. Their migrations here happened....how long ago? Help me out here.

          From small beginnings like our website, we CAN start a trend in descriptive lexicography that the internet can and does spread. Political correctness began as a social, phenomenon in exactly this manner.

          "From little things, big things grow..."
          Last edited by Drusus Nero; 17 Nov 16, 23:44.
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          • #65
            Every time they put a date on the first humans to reach the Americas, they find another archaeology site that pushes the date back. One problem is the coastline was further out in the last Ice Age and any campsites could be well under water now. Then you have discoveries like in Brazil where they found incredibly old skeletons that look Austranesian. I don't think any remnant tribes in Brazil have such a genetic marker anymore. Much more recent is the discovery of Polynesian Skulls in a cave on an island off Chile. Dogma still says the Polynesians first reached South America when Slavers from Peru raided Easter Island. There are extra Jokers in the deck of cards that represent archaeology in the Americas.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              Every time they put a date on the first humans to reach the Americas, they find another archaeology site that pushes the date back. One problem is the coastline was further out in the last Ice Age and any campsites could be well under water now. Then you have discoveries like in Brazil where they found incredibly old skeletons that look Austranesian. I don't think any remnant tribes in Brazil have such a genetic marker anymore. Much more recent is the discovery of Polynesian Skulls in a cave on an island off Chile. Dogma still says the Polynesians first reached South America when Slavers from Peru raided Easter Island. There are extra Jokers in the deck of cards that represent archaeology in the Americas.

              Pruitt
              After 35 years of trying to explain the earliest migrations in North America I retire and YOU give the best description I've ever heard.
              +1
              My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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              • #67
                Until about 20 years ago, a conservative estimate of migration from Asia across the Bering Strait and down the Alaskan corridor would have been about 35, 000 years but that date has been pushed back by archaeological finds on the migration route and elsewhere.

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                • #68
                  I did some searching in Science Magazine and I found that there are traces of Australoid/Melanesian genes in the Surui Tribe in Brazil. Science also has articles on South American Genes found on Easter Island.

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by jf42 View Post
                    "one of the greatest explorers and leaders of all time."

                    How is this an objective, proportionate, factual statement?

                    Greatest in comparison to- who?

                    According to what criteria?

                    Says - who?

                    Might there be an opposing viewpoint?
                    Of course not everyone has the same viewpoint on historical figures. I take no offense if you or someone else do not view Cortes in a positive manner... You ask me, I just happen to respect Hernan Cortes just as folks have a respect for Caesar, or other Romans.

                    Cortes can be compared to the other great navigators of the ages....Columbus, Drake, Magellan.
                    Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Marmat View Post
                      ... one can equate the terms "rational people" and "advanced civilization". The Aztecs, while able to construct large structures from stone, remained just that, a stone age culture. They had no pack animals, and apart from dogs, which they kept for food, had no domesticated mammals for food purposes, and despite some rudimentary metallurgy i.e. gold, they relied on obsidian for tools and weapons i.e. more stone. Their newly found empire collapsed in the face of relatively small numbers of technologically superior enemies from a well established, more stable society.

                      Were they advanced? I suppose, like early Rome, they borrowed from earlier and neighbouring societies, and rose to impose their will to become the most dominant civilization, in a land of stone age civilizations. That said, in comparative terms, in many ways they remain on a level lower than the dominant early modern societies/civilizations of Europe, the Far, Middle and Near East of the same period.

                      You might want to check out "Collapse - How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" & "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond
                      Perhaps an argument can be made that while the Aztecs were different from the Europeans and Arabs of the same time period...that the Aztecs in their own unique way built a tremendous civilization.


                      I take it you disagree with the following irt the warfare/meetings between the Aztecs and Spaniards.

                      These encounters brought about an inevitable culture change, more striking in the case of the indigenous world, but significant also in the case of the Europeans. The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations, which had not been in any form of communication before, was followed by a prolonged and uninterrupted process of interaction and exchange.

                      https://erc.europa.eu/projects-and-r...ansfer-new-wor

                      Now the above is from a professional researcher...and it is her...not I...who is suggesting

                      The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations, which had not been in any form of communication before,




                      Even though the Aztecs used stone to construct their buildings... Hernan Cortes still said wrt the lands of the Aztecs...this is the most richest and beautiful land there ever was.
                      Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                      The philosophy of the gospel is the philosophy of equality, consequently the most favorable to republican government
                      -Napoleon Bonaparte

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                      • #71
                        How about the awe inspiring Aztec capital, Tenochitlan




                        [FONT="Garamond"]The Aztec Empire flourished between c. 1345 and 1521 CE and, at its greatest extent, covered most of northern Mesoamerica. Aztec warriors were able to dominate their neighbouring states and permit rulers such as Motecuhzoma II to impose Aztec ideals and religion across Mexico. Highly accomplished in agriculture and trade, the last of the great Mesoamerican civilizations was also noted for its art and architecture which ranks amongst the finest ever produced on the continent.

                        The Aztec state is actually the most well documented Mesoamerican civilization with sources including archaeology, native books (codices) and lengthy and detailed accounts from their Spanish conquerors - both by military men and Christian clergy. These latter sources may not always be reliable but the picture we have of the Aztecs, their institutions, religious practices, warfare and daily life is a rich one and it continues to be constantly expanded with details being added through the endeavours of 21st century CE archaeologists and scholars.[/FONT]


                        Speaking on the Aztecs, the Spaniard Diego Duran said,

                        MASTERS OF THE WORLD, THEIR EMPIRE SO WIDE AND ABUNDANT THAT THEY HAD CONQUERED ALL THE NATIONS. DIEGO DURÁN

                        http://www.ancient.eu/Aztec_Civilization/




                        More on Diego Duran...what an extraordinary person Duran was.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Dur%C3%A1n
                        Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                        The philosophy of the gospel is the philosophy of equality, consequently the most favorable to republican government
                        -Napoleon Bonaparte

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Dude, ...

                          ... have it your way, the Aztecs produced an advanced, a "tremendous" STONE AGE civilization, but it was STONE AGE nevertheless. Their newly found Empire dominated their neighbours because of military prowess, a military that was in itself dominated by a virtual handful of European combatants.

                          Even more, Aztec "art and architecture which ranks amongst the finest ever produced on the continent", again, in the Americas, amongst STONE AGE civilizations. Make no mistake, Hernán Cortés was a loose cannon, a Conquistador, an acquisitive seeker of precious metals, not a purveyor of art or architecture. While the Aztecs were toiling with stone and ochre, early modern age Europeans Michelangelo and da Vinci, Kepler and Copernicus, were in Renaissance, building with cement & concrete, painting in oils with depth and perspective. They'd overcome and shrugged off the affects of the Black Death, while the Aztec Empire would fall to small pox.

                          You can wander around the internet, point to the wisdom of folks you've never heard of before, and cut and paste all kinds of bits that seem to support your preconceived notions; but you do so unwilling to visualize all the relevant data in any meaningful relationship.

                          That's it for me, babble on all you want.
                          "I am Groot"
                          - Groot

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                          • #73
                            I can't rep you again so soon.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Marmat View Post
                              ... have it your way, the Aztecs produced an advanced, a "tremendous" STONE AGE civilization, but it was STONE AGE nevertheless. Their newly found Empire dominated their neighbours because of military prowess, a military that was in itself dominated by a virtual handful of European combatants.

                              Even more, Aztec "art and architecture which ranks amongst the finest ever produced on the continent", again, in the Americas, amongst STONE AGE civilizations. Make no mistake, Hernán Cortés was a loose cannon, a Conquistador, an acquisitive seeker of precious metals, not a purveyor of art or architecture. While the Aztecs were toiling with stone and ochre, early modern age Europeans Michelangelo and da Vinci, Kepler and Copernicus, were in Renaissance, building with cement & concrete, painting in oils with depth and perspective. They'd overcome and shrugged off the affects of the Black Death, while the Aztec Empire would fall to small pox.

                              You can wander around the internet, point to the wisdom of folks you've never heard of before, and cut and paste all kinds of bits that seem to support your preconceived notions; but you do so unwilling to visualize all the relevant data in any meaningful relationship.

                              That's it for me, babble on all you want.

                              Here is what a researcher said

                              These encounters brought about an inevitable culture change, more striking in the case of the indigenous world, but significant also in the case of the Europeans. The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations, which had not been in any form of communication before, was followed by a prolonged and uninterrupted process of interaction and exchange.

                              https://erc.europa.eu/projects-and-r...ansfer-new-wor

                              In Universities...Professors are not allowed to berate their students. If you think my sources are wrong, then provide an alternative viewpoint in a polite manner.
                              Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                              The philosophy of the gospel is the philosophy of equality, consequently the most favorable to republican government
                              -Napoleon Bonaparte

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                These encounters brought about an inevitable culture change, more striking in the case of the indigenous world, but significant also in the case of the Europeans. The violent clash of two very advanced civilizations, which had not been in any form of communication before, was followed by a prolonged and uninterrupted process of interaction and exchange.

                                The research led by Dr. Justyna Olko and her team in Warsaw, Seville and Mexico reconstructs and tries to understand the nature, exact trajectories, mechanisms and implications of cross-cultural contact and transfers between Europeans and the native people of the Americas. The study focuses on, but is not limited to, the Nahuatl-speaking zone of central Mexico. The meticulous and cross-disciplinary study of an extensive body of texts in Nahuatl (“Aztec”) and Spanish, complemented by present-day ethnolinguistic data, make it possible to deduce and understand patterns across time and space in ways novel to existing scholarship, embracing both micro- and macroregional trends.


                                https://erc.europa.eu/projects-and-r...ansfer-new-wor



                                Edit: Peace.
                                Last edited by Stonewall_Jack; 18 Nov 16, 15:05.
                                Long live the Lionheart! Please watch this video
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jRDwlR4zbEM
                                The philosophy of the gospel is the philosophy of equality, consequently the most favorable to republican government
                                -Napoleon Bonaparte

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