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  • Where's the Outrage?

    Cuba's government has begun the trials of 80 dissidents to suppress a growing opposition movement. I was just wondering when there was going to be huge marches in Europe protesting this fact. Aren't you guys for human rights? When I see a million people protesting the Castro regime in Paris or Berlin I'll believe their self-righteous rhetoric. Until then it's just bitter anti-americanism.
    "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

    Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

  • #2
    1000 Killed in DN Congo

    I suspect if the US was involved in this there would be a ton of protest. However since this is a former Belgian colony no outrage is required from the Parisian street mob.

    NAIROBI (Reuters) - The United Nations said on Sunday it had been told nearly 1,000 civilians were massacred by tribal militias with machetes and guns in northeast Democratic Republic of Congo last week and buried in mass graves.

    "The (U.N.) investigating team heard that 966 people were massacred. They identified 20 mass graves and visited 49 seriously injured people in hospitals," U.N. mission in Congo (MONUC) spokesman Hamadoun Toure told Reuters.

    Witnesses said the massacre occurred on Thursday when attackers descended on the town of Drodro and 14 neighboring villages near the Ituri district's capital Bunia, some 50 miles from the border with Uganda.

    Toure said MONUC investigators had talked to local priests, tribal leaders and eyewitnesses who said the orgy of killing lasted for three hours.

    The investigators, who visited Drodro on Saturday, saw evidence of clothing and traces of blood above the mass graves, Toure said.

    The massacre report emerged just days after Congo's warring factions signed a long-awaited political settlement to end several years of conflict in Africa's third biggest country.

    CIVIL WAR

    Congo was plunged into civil war in 1998 when Rwanda and Uganda backed an uprising in the east to overthrow the Kinshasa government. At one point, six foreign armies were drawn into the war for Congo's mineral wealth, and two million people are believed to have died, mainly from hunger and disease.

    Ugandan army spokesman Shaban Bantariza said he was aware that "hundreds had been killed" in Drodro but was waiting for further information from army representatives who had gone to investigate.

    Ugandan troops have remained in Ituri district at the request of the United Nations, which feared a power and security vacuum in the area.

    Ethnic clashes in Ituri have killed thousands of people since 1999.

    Talks, organized by the Ituri Pacification Commission (IPC) which is supported by the Congolese and Ugandan governments and MONUC, are planned to bring peace to war-ravaged northeastern Congo.

    Hema and Lendu tribal militias signed a cease-fire agreement in March to allow the IPC to begin its work and eventually lead to the withdrawal of Ugandan troops from eastern Congo.

    Residents of Drodro, a mainly Hema town, said Thursday's attackers spoke a Lendu language.

    Local human rights groups say up to 500,000 people have fled their homes and 50,000 more have been killed in the past four years, as rival rebel factions, ethnic militias and the Ugandan army have fought for control of the gold-rich Ituri district.

    Fresh fighting was reported on Sunday between Rwanda-backed Rally for Congolese Democracy (RCD-Goma) rebels and a tribal militia group in the eastern Congolese town of Bukavu.

    RCD-Goma senior official Joseph Mudumbi told Reuters the Mai Mai tribal militia group was loyal to a former governor of Bukavu. The town is controlled by RCD-Goma.

    A local journalist in Bukavu said later calm had returned to the town but that the Mai Mai group was still on the outskirts.

    In the peace settlement signed last Wednesday, Congo's government, rebel groups and opposition parties agreed to a transitional government to rule the former Belgian colony for up to 2-1/2 years until its first democratic elections in four decades.
    "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

    Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

    Comment


    • #3
      It's nothing new.

      Clinton and UN did not lift a finger to stop the genocide of Tutsi or Hutsi in Rwanda (which is it?) killing each other, where more than 100,000 women and children were slaughtered like pigs.

      There were no parades in the name of UN clamoring for the internevation in Rwanda. There were no outcries in any of country on this world. These people in Rwanda were left to their own devices.

      I did not see any marches or parades in Middle East, shouting for UN to end the human right abuses in China, Argentina, Colombia, and many other countries.

      It always has been about US and anti-Americanism.

      If it were France or Germany invading Iraq, there wouldn't be a lot of outcries and anti-war protests which are largely based on anti-Americanism.

      Shame on you, United Nations!

      United Nations, stop being such a crybaby!

      Dan
      Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

      "Aim small, miss small."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cheetah772
        It's nothing new.

        Clinton and UN did not lift a finger to stop the genocide of Tutsi or Hutsi in Rwanda (which is it?) killing each other, where more than 100,000 women and children were slaughtered like pigs.

        There were no parades in the name of UN clamoring for the internevation in Rwanda. There were no outcries in any of country on this world. These people in Rwanda were left to their own devices.

        I did not see any marches or parades in Middle East, shouting for UN to end the human right abuses in China, Argentina, Colombia, and many other countries.

        It always has been about US and anti-Americanism.

        If it were France or Germany invading Iraq, there wouldn't be a lot of outcries and anti-war protests which are largely based on anti-Americanism.

        Shame on you, United Nations!

        United Nations, stop being such a crybaby!

        Dan
        It was even worse than what you say above Cheetah772.

        The UN was actually on the ground in Rwanda when the atrocities began.

        Before the slaughter began, the UN commander, Gen. Romeo Dallaire, repeatedly asked UNHQ for more troops to prevent what eventually took place. UN Headquarters refused and even ordered Dallaire not to intervene after (IIRC) 3 Belgian peacekeepers were killed trying to prevent the slaughter of some Tutsis.

        An estimated 800 000 Tutsis were slaughtered.The incident left Gen Dallaire scarred and unable to function in civilian life afterwards.

        That is the glory and legacy of the UN.
        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cheetah772
          It's nothing new.

          Clinton and UN did not lift a finger to stop the genocide of Tutsi or Hutsi in Rwanda (which is it?) killing each other, where more than 100,000 women and children were slaughtered like pigs.

          There were no parades in the name of UN clamoring for the internevation in Rwanda. There were no outcries in any of country on this world. These people in Rwanda were left to their own devices.

          I did not see any marches or parades in Middle East, shouting for UN to end the human right abuses in China, Argentina, Colombia, and many other countries.

          It always has been about US and anti-Americanism.

          If it were France or Germany invading Iraq, there wouldn't be a lot of outcries and anti-war protests which are largely based on anti-Americanism.

          Shame on you, United Nations!

          United Nations, stop being such a crybaby!

          Dan
          I think it would be unfair to blame the UN.
          As I have said in other posts, I believe it would be preferable to have an organisation like the UN, which, as one of its roles, acts as a global peace force.
          At the moment, the UN does not have that much power, and I think the main reason is we have not given the power to it.
          If you had a small police station in a large city, and not very many staff, with not very many powers, trying to control this city with it's different people, could you really, as a person living in this city, blame the police when hostilities break out, and you yourself are part of the problem, maybe not the cause, but part of it?

          Call me a wishful utopian if you wish

          I dont think it has 'always' been about 'anti-Americanism', more like, "If the Americans are so goody goody, and thats the flag you raise, the moral high ground you claim, when you attack the likes of Iraq, to 'better' the world, to remove this 'evil' person, make everyone safer, then you had better be above reproach yourselves, and be consistant.

          America right now has the right to be called 'The Super Power' of the world, Economically, and Militarilly at least, it dominates the world, so you can, as an American, be expected to be looked up to, and judged on your actions.
          With this power, comes responsibilty, and people see what you get away with.
          There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary, and those that dont...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tigersqn

            An estimated 800 000 Tutsis were slaughtered.The incident left Gen Dallaire scarred and unable to function in civilian life afterwards.
            I imagine if the US slaughtered 8 Tutsis the outrage would of been much louder.
            "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

            Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tigersqn



              That is the glory and legacy of the UN.
              That is the glory and legacy of us, we, the people.
              There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary, and those that dont...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cheetah772

                It always has been about US and anti-Americanism.
                It has nothing to with the US. It has everything to do with the world's only superpower. It dosen't matter who that superpower is.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hypocrisy is on each side, it’s sure. It’s true that we hear nothing, there is nobody in the streets, when Ethiopia invades Erythree, when people are slaughtered in Congo, Rwanda or Burundi, or when religious communities kill each other in East Asia. Protesting against the USA in front of a beer in a café is better for self-respect than going to South Sudan and help starving people. This second solution may be dangerous and nobody will speak about you in the media. But you can say the same thing for the other side, which say that the intervention is made to help Iraqi people, to destroy quasi nonexistent WMDs or because of a so called link with Al Kaida.
                  There are the true reasons : protecting self interests, jealously against the strong boy on one side ; installing your power to control the region, having an influence on the rest of the world, surrounding countries perceived as threats or rivals (Iran, Russia or China) on the other side. And then there are the reasons that everybody need to cover the true ones, a veil permitting to keep good conscience (or to convince the indecisive persons) : we want to maintain peace, we want to save people…
                  Anyway, mixing morality with politic or diplomacy has something indecent. When it’s necessary everybody forgets morality. To paraphrase an expression, I would say that good reasons are like assholes, everybody has one.

                  La Palice.
                  Monsieur de La Palice est mort
                  Mort devant Pavie.
                  Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
                  Il était encore en vie...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Africa is a good show of hypocrisy. When 1000 civilians are slaughtered in Congo or Liberia, there are only one or two sentences in the newspapers, nobody care. When some white farmers are persecuted in Zimbabwe, you have long report in prime time, everybody is horrified.

                    La Palice.
                    Monsieur de La Palice est mort
                    Mort devant Pavie.
                    Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
                    Il était encore en vie...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, that all goes to show the power of the media; with 24h coverage of the Iraq war virtually anything else happening in the world is ignored. It's "the story" that makes the headlines, and quite naturally US citizens are way more concerned about the wellfare of their soldiers (and this often means friends and relatives!) than unknown people in an unknown country killed for unknown reasons. Hell, there's plenty bloodshed of that kind between rivalling gangs in US cities every day!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LaPalice
                        Hypocrisy is on each side, it’s sure. It’s true that we hear nothing, there is nobody in the streets, when Ethiopia invades Erythree, when people are slaughtered in Congo, Rwanda or Burundi, or when religious communities kill each other in East Asia. Protesting against the USA in front of a beer in a café is better for self-respect than going to South Sudan and help starving people. This second solution may be dangerous and nobody will speak about you in the media. But you can say the same thing for the other side, which say that the intervention is made to help Iraqi people, to destroy quasi nonexistent WMDs or because of a so called link with Al Kaida.
                        There are the true reasons : protecting self interests, jealously against the strong boy on one side ; installing your power to control the region, having an influence on the rest of the world, surrounding countries perceived as threats or rivals (Iran, Russia or China) on the other side. And then there are the reasons that everybody need to cover the true ones, a veil permitting to keep good conscience (or to convince the indecisive persons) : we want to maintain peace, we want to save people…
                        Anyway, mixing morality with politic or diplomacy has something indecent. When it’s necessary everybody forgets morality. To paraphrase an expression, I would say that good reasons are like assholes, everybody has one.

                        La Palice.
                        Very well said La Palice.

                        We really need to look past the yelling and screaming. Protest are slowing. People are backing down. The US needs to forgive and forget. The right move now is to move on. The UN wants a role in rebuilding Iraq. I understand why there are concerns. Countries that didn't want to fight in the war would like to help rebuild the nation. We need to rapidly establish somekind of framework that would allow the UN to participate. (As to it taking the lead is another story.)
                        "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Deltapooh


                          Very well said La Palice.

                          We really need to look past the yelling and screaming. Protest are slowing. People are backing down. The US needs to forgive and forget. The right move now is to move on. The UN wants a role in rebuilding Iraq. I understand why there are concerns. Countries that didn't want to fight in the war would like to help rebuild the nation. We need to rapidly establish somekind of framework that would allow the UN to participate. (As to it taking the lead is another story.)
                          I couldn’t ask better .

                          But apparently the hawks are currently stronger than Colin Powel in the Bush administration, and I don’t see for the moment the UN taking a part in the post war in Iraq. To maintain peace in the country the USA should prefer to build a flexible coalition which they could control without passing by the rules of any existing organization as UN or even NATO. If I’m not wrong it’s a part of current American doctrine, building coalition in accordance with the necessities of the moment.
                          Blair could play a important role there, that will be very interesting to know what happen in the meeting in Belfast today.

                          La Palice.
                          Monsieur de La Palice est mort
                          Mort devant Pavie.
                          Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
                          Il était encore en vie...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not that they're completely interchangable circumstances, but it's interesting how in Afghanistan the US wanted to setup a representative government ASAP where as in Iraq they intend to do a post-war Japan/Germany with military occupation. Whatever rationale I apply to Iraq for a military occupation I could have applied to Afghanistan.

                            I'd like to think the US "learned" from the mistakes of post-war Afghanistan, but I guess I'm just too cynical to do that. Karzai's brother is coming out and basically calling the US sellouts for abandoning them and the rebuilding of Afghanistan... internal security/police are apparently going largely unpaid (which means they tend not to show up for work) and (presumably) the Taliban just executed the first international aid worker recently. Warlords are back at each other's necks and Afghanistan resembles something of pre-Taliban Afghanistan (which isn't a bad thing mind you, but not that much of an improvement).
                            "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                            – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Deltapooh

                              We really need to look past the yelling and screaming. Protest are slowing. People are backing down. The US needs to forgive and forget.


                              Of course the protest are ending... the war is about over. It would be dumb to hold a protest for something that already happened.

                              The US should attempt to continue normal trade relations with these countries but not pretend they are allies. There is ample evidence that these countries are now aligned together against the US.


                              The right move now is to move on. The UN wants a role in rebuilding Iraq. I understand why there are concerns. Countries that didn't want to fight in the war would like to help rebuild the nation. We need to rapidly establish somekind of framework that would allow the UN to participate.


                              Of course they want the UN to have a role. Otherwise their countries will be left out in the cold.
                              "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                              Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                              Comment

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