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  • Apache incident....

    Hello,

    As most of you are aware that an Apache went down, and two pilots were captured by the Iraqis.

    I am completely amazed that the Iraqis and the rest of Arab world actually believe that this Apache was shot down by a few peasants with a couple of old rifles and considering this a great victory.

    If that were true, then wouldn't it be wise if they actually shot up Apache before videoing this live? At least, it would make much more sense than seeing an intact Apache with little or no visible damage.

    Besides, the Apaches are designed to withstand .50 caliber machine guns, anti-aircraft guns (7.62mm?), and even a couple of RPGs, so please tell me how do we really expect the world to believe in the Iraqi propaganda...

    Dan
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

  • #2
    I'm not saying I believe it, but being designed to withstand .50 caliber rounds (it's actually 23mm rounds, or thereabouts, for the rotors and engine compartments) doesn't mean that every contour and exposed surface can withstand 12.7mm (or even smaller) rounds. IIRC even the composite armor on the underside of the Apache is neither comprehensive nor consistent.

    And when you're talking small arms fire you're typically talking large volumes of it, increasing the chance that critical locations could be hit.

    In other words, not inconceivable, but not that likely either.
    "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

    – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

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    • #3
      A brigade of 30 apache helicopters attacked. I would love to see what kind of damage the enemy forces took from that.
      "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

      Comment


      • #4
        American forces and equipment are neither invincible,or unstoppable.Losses in men and equipment are to be expected.If the loss of a helicopter is such a huge loss then maybe we should not have been involved in this in the first place,though really i blame the media.I just wish those talking heads would shut up for five minutes and quite exaggerating everything from all perspectives.To them every skirmish is a battle and every loss a major set back,meanwhile with what amounts to an expeditionary force the Allies sit within 50 miles of Baghdad.

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        • #5
          Yeah the media has definately been trumping up this "4 days to Baghdad" idea that's taken root.

          I actually just posted an article in the other thread that had an interesting quote about the Apache attack:

          Rumsfeld and Central Command boss Gen. Tommy Franks have cautioned that the invasion is entering its most dangerous phase and that the United States could expect significant casualties. A fleet of Apache helicopters came under heavy fire early Monday while attacking Republican Guard units. Some say that fight will foreshadow the ferocity of Iraq's defense. One Apache was lost, and a rescue helicopter was turned back after a withering anti-aircraft barrage. Of the more than 30 Apaches that were sent out, every one had damage from ground fire.
          "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

          – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

          Comment


          • #6
            Helicopters seem to be the most vulnerable part of the US arsenal. Guys who go up in them have to be very brave.
            "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

            Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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            • #7
              I'm not clear on army doctrine,though aren't Apaches supposed to be supported with ground troops.Sending them up against large formations of heavily armed troops by themselves sounds about as stupid as sending armor into a city without infantry support.

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              • #8
                Though to expand upon that last thought,i would suppose that alot of new doctrines and tactics will be put to test to see how succesfull they could be in this conflict

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                • #9
                  No, the Apaches support the ground troops. They need to take out some of the heavy weapons before the foot soldier moves in.
                  "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                  Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chuck
                    No, the Apaches support the ground troops. They need to take out some of the heavy weapons before the foot soldier moves in.
                    I could have sworn that during the war in Kosovo that one of the reasons given that the Apaches were not getting into the fight was that there was not sufficent ground forces to support them,well along with many others.

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                    • #11
                      I think it had more to do with the fact that the Serbs maintained a credible air defense threat during the entire air campaign, making Apaches risky to use. NATO warplanes had a hard deck of, IIRC, 15,000 feet as a result.

                      Had bombing the rest of Serbia not been a viable political option that would have been a rough one. The Serb army walked out more or less unscathed, despite all the media reports and satellite imagery that we thought was showing us the Serb army being smashed.
                      "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                      – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MikeJ
                        I think it had more to do with the fact that the Serbs maintained a credible air defense threat during the entire air campaign, making Apaches risky to use. NATO warplanes had a hard deck of, IIRC, 15,000 feet as a result.

                        Had bombing the rest of Serbia not been a viable political option that would have been a rough one. The Serb army walked out more or less unscathed, despite all the media reports and satellite imagery that we thought was showing us the Serb army being smashed.
                        Total of a little over a dozen vehicles destroyed or disabled according to Natos own after action reports.This just proves that you cannot wage a war without risk to yourself if you want to hurt the other guys forces in the field.

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                        • #13
                          Also these apaches were just sent on a scouting mission to see where the enemy positions were. It was not their objective to mount a full scale attack on the medina division of the republican guard.

                          The media coverage is downright nutty. We lost one helicopter! The good thing is the public opinion is not taking the news tone seriously.

                          In Vietnam we lost 5,000 helicopters....
                          "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            On a side note, I think helicopters in general are outdated in terms of their vulnerability. Its time for the U.S. military to come up with a new revolutionary type of aircraft to replace it.
                            "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kid kool
                              On a side note, I think helicopters in general are outdated in terms of their vulnerability. Its time for the U.S. military to come up with a new revolutionary type of aircraft to replace it.
                              I think they did but they scrapped that program.
                              "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                              Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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