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  • Will Saddam exile himself and his family.

    What are the opinions here on this being the likely outcome from Bush's speech tonight?I personnally can't see him taking this option,or his sons for that matter.Without Iraq under their control they are nothing and i highly doubt that any goverment in the world who would take him in could 100% gaurantee his saftey.The man and his sons have made too many enemies in their time in power.

  • #2
    One estimate I saw said that even if he decided to cut and run, he'd need more time to do it than we're offering.

    Anyway, it's a moot point. You notice how Bush carefully didn't say anything about leaving him alone *after* he cuts and runs.
    "Lord... forgive me my actions, speech and thoughts. Because, Lord, I am seriously going to kick some unrighteous ass in Your Name, Amen."
    Princess of Wands by John Ringo (Jan 2006)

    http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200601...9232.htm?blurb

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    • #3
      Maybe he will go into hiding with Osama, Lord Lucan and Shergar.

      Comment


      • #4
        And....

        Hello,

        And how do we know Saddam and his family are not a bunch of doubles covering for the real dictator and his family?

        It would be stupid to assume whosoever escaped wouldn't be the doubles.

        If they were the doubles, then I would rather shoot them dead, better to be safe than sorry. After all, there's no innocent family members absolved of any murder or torture. Not even the wives of such family members are innocent, they knew about whatever their husbands were doing....

        Dan
        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

        "Aim small, miss small."

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: And....

          Originally posted by Cheetah772
          Hello,

          And how do we know Saddam and his family are not a bunch of doubles covering for the real dictator and his family?

          It would be stupid to assume whosoever escaped wouldn't be the doubles.

          If they were the doubles, then I would rather shoot them dead, better to be safe than sorry. After all, there's no innocent family members absolved of any murder or torture. Not even the wives of such family members are innocent, they knew about whatever their husbands were doing....

          Dan
          I guess the guys over at the 'Saddam look-a-like Agency' should be worried then ? So you advocate shooting innocent people then ? So do you think Saddam and his family should be shot dead then ? If yes..then you have proven my point exactly. How can you be better than the Iraqi regime.

          Oh yes and saddam's grandchildren ? Maybe they are evil too ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Re: And....

            Originally posted by Marko


            I guess the guys over at the 'Saddam look-a-like Agency' should be worried then ? So you advocate shooting innocent people then ? So do you think Saddam and his family should be shot dead then ? If yes..then you have proven my point exactly. How can you be better than the Iraqi regime.

            Oh yes and saddam's grandchildren ? Maybe they are evil too ?
            Hello,

            Saddam's sons grew up playing with disarmed grenades, and went with their daddy to the torture chambers, watching in awe the innocent people being disemembered. So, no, my dear Marko, these kind of children aren't innocent.

            A cute little kid that carries an AK-47 is just deadly as an adult trotting a machine gun. You need see no further than the African countries that have kid soldiers, the people over there can tell you, they're the most dangerous bunch of soldiers. These kind of soldiers have no qualms about killing anybody and don't possess the moral judgments way the adults do. If that's what we see in the African nations, then in Iraq, it's no different.

            I am not saying we should go out and murder every kid in the street all over Iraq. Just that we do need to watch out for kids with guns. Saddam's grandchildren may very well be innocent simply because they're too young to become psychotic or deadly thugs, however. If they're in the teenage years, and capable of carrying an AK-47, then as far I am concerned, I would prefer blowing them away.

            If I were a soldier and just saw a kid pointing an AK-47 at me, I would not hesitate in shooting him first. Never mind how old that kid is.

            Dan
            Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

            "Aim small, miss small."

            Comment


            • #7
              Saddam needs around 96hrs to leave Iraq. We don't want him and his sons to just leave. We'd also like Saddam to order his troops to not resist, and employ somekind of transition of government to ensure a all hell doesn't break loose.

              When Haitian dictators went into exile to avoid an American invasion, they left immediately. However, it still took around 12hrs for them to issue their orders to troops. That was a force of around 7,000 troops. Iraq has over 400,000.

              Saddam is the government of Iraq, not just the President. Given his level of control and what we want, it would take some time for him to leave without spiraling Iraq into a chaotic hell-hole, which would require our troops to control.

              The forty-eight hour deadline is likely based on Embassy evacuation plans. It was simply a political move to offer Saddam a chance to leave with the foriegners. Besides, who believes he will anyway?
              "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Re: Re: And....

                Originally posted by Cheetah772


                Hello,

                Saddam's sons grew up playing with disarmed grenades, and went with their daddy to the torture chambers, watching in awe the innocent people being disemembered. So, no, my dear Marko, these kind of children aren't innocent.

                A cute little kid that carries an AK-47 is just deadly as an adult trotting a machine gun. You need see no further than the African countries that have kid soldiers, the people over there can tell you, they're the most dangerous bunch of soldiers. These kind of soldiers have no qualms about killing anybody and don't possess the moral judgments way the adults do. If that's what we see in the African nations, then in Iraq, it's no different.

                I am not saying we should go out and murder every kid in the street all over Iraq. Just that we do need to watch out for kids with guns. Saddam's grandchildren may very well be innocent simply because they're too young to become psychotic or deadly thugs, however. If they're in the teenage years, and capable of carrying an AK-47, then as far I am concerned, I would prefer blowing them away.

                If I were a soldier and just saw a kid pointing an AK-47 at me, I would not hesitate in shooting him first. Never mind how old that kid is.

                Dan
                If those aren't the words of a baby-killer then I don't know what are.

                Last edited by Marko; 20 Mar 03, 04:45.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Re: Re: Re: And....

                  US troops might end up fighting Iraqi child soldiers
                  Saddam has trained children as young as 10 to fight through ambushes, sniping, and terrorist-type operations, reports DERWIN PEREIRA

                  AMERICAN GIs may have a psychological battle on their hands if they invade Iraq.


                  WELL TRAINED: American soldiers are armed to the teeth and trained for war in the desert, but they may not be prepared for the psychological effect of fighting child soldiers. -- AP
                  Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has trained children - some as young as 10 - to confront them in small-scale ambushes, sniping, roadblocks and terrorist-type operations behind the battle lines.

                  A recent report from the respected Washington-based Brookings Institute suggested that these 'child soldiers' could become problematic for US troops even if they have overwhelming military superiority over Baghdad.

                  The report noted: 'Because Iraq's child soldiers have been rigorously indoctrinated by the regime, the flow of the war and even the disintegration of resistance by regular Iraqi military forces may have little impact on their actions.'

                  The presence of children on the battlefield adds to the overall confusion of battle. Child soldiers could slow the progress of US forces, particularly when operating in an urban environment, and needlessly add to casualty totals on both sides.

                  Complicating this, it added, was the impact this would have on public opinion - especially in the Arab world.

                  'The US should expect that these children would be portrayed in the Muslim press as heroic martyrs defending their homes against the American Goliath,' said military analyst Peter Singer, who authored the report.

                  The report disclosed that Mr Saddam had laid the groundwork for the use of child soldiers over the last 10 years by extensive recruitment and training.

                  In addition to the boot camps, Iraq has also organised several child soldier units.

                  Some of these outfits fall under the rubric of the Futuwah or Youth Vanguard movement, a Ba'ath party organ formed in the late 1970s and aimed at setting up a paramilitary organisation among children at secondary school level.

                  Dr Singer said that units of this force were even pressed into service during the nadir of Iraqi fortunes in the war against Iran in the mid-1980s.

                  The most important Iraqi child soldier unit, however, is the Ashbal Saddam or Saddam's Lion Cubs that was formed after the 1991 Gulf War defeat. There are an estimated 8,000 members in Baghdad alone now.

                  These involve boys between the ages of 10 and 15, who attend military training camps and learn the use of small arms and infantry tactics.

                  The camps involve as much as 14 hours of training and political indoctrination every day. They also employ training techniques intended to desensitise the youth to violence, including Invalid leading Invalid leading frequent beatings and deliberate cruelty to animals.

                  The Ashbal Saddam also acts as a feeder programme to the Fidayin Saddam or Saddam's Men of Sacrifice.


                  WELL INDOCTRINATED: Iraqi boys who join President Saddam's boot camps are desensitised to violence through training techniques that include frequent beatings. Apart from the boot camps, Mr Saddam has several child soldier units. -- AFP
                  The Fidayin, one of many internal security services Baghdad employs to intimidate its people, is a paramilitary organisation controlled by Mr Saddam's eldest son Uday.

                  The report noted that historically, fighting child soldiers have often proven 'demoralising' for professional troops and affected their unit cohesion.

                  For example, American troops fighting the Hitler Jugend or Hitler Youth in 1945 had the lowest morale of an US forces during the entire course of war.

                  Likewise, British forces operating in West Africa in 2001 suffered clinical depression and stress disorder after facing youngsters in battle.

                  Dr Singer said that the challenge for American troops was to prepare for the unthinkable - confronting children in war.

                  This included coming up with better rules of engagement and psychological operations to convince these youths to leave their military units.

                  'In a war against Iraq, US troops will be put into a situation where they face real and serious threats from opponents whom they generally would prefer not to harm.

                  'Because of the increasing simplicity and lethality of modern small arms, child soldiers cannot be dismissed as military threats. A bullet from the gun of a 14-year-old can kill just as well as one from a 40-year-old.'
                  "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                  • #10
                    Young but deadly -- desperate Saddam to use child-soldiers
                    January 29, 2003

                    By Toby Westerman
                    Copyright 2003 International News Analysis Today
                    www.inatoday.com

                    Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, who once fancied himself as the successor of great Near Eastern monarchs of long ago, is resorting to measures more reminiscent of the cornered Adolph Hitler in 1945.

                    Baghdad is already fortified for a "last stand," and now there is a report that Saddam will use child-soldiers in a suicidal defense of his regime.

                    Just as Hitler used German boys in a desperate attempt to avoid complete defeat, Saddam is using Iraqi youth to support his hated regime.

                    The "Lions Club" and the "Ashbal Saddam" are Saddam's two main child-soldier organizations, which consist of children from 10 to 15 years old who are ready to "fight a bitter house-to-house battle" against U.S.-led forces invading Iraq, according to a recent report from the German news magazine, Der Spiegel.

                    Trained in the use of small arms, and steeped in a militant interpretation of the Koran, the child-soldiers pose a special danger to U.S. troops who may face them.

                    "Children understand nothing of tactics and do not see the total picture…[but] if they come under attack, they fight wildly," cautioned Major Jim Gray of the British Royal Marines.

                    U.S. and allied soldiers must be ready for the shock of encountering child-soldiers, warned Gray.

                    Child-soldiers can be ferocious opponents, capable of "shocking cruelty," more ready to take risks and display greater unpredictability than adult troops, according to Peter Singer of the U.S.-based Brookings Institute, and quoted in Der Spiegel.

                    The British have had recent experience with child-soldiers. In the African nation of Sierra Leone in 1991, 150 British commandos came under fire from a group of underage troops, resulting in 12 dead.

                    After the fight with the child-soldiers, many of the British soldiers experienced depression and post traumatic stress disorder, according to Der Spiegel, citing a report from the Brookings Institute.

                    Baghdad is thought to have 8,000 child-soldier defenders, Der Spiegel reported.

                    Along with the use of underage soldiers, Saddam is becoming increasingly suspicious regarding the activities of "traitors".

                    In a recent meeting with army and political leaders and broadcast on Iraqi television, Saddam warned that all "traitors" must be hunted down, describing disloyal individuals as "in principle not even human," according to a report from the online version of the German news magazine, Focus.

                    Several Western European nations and Arab states are attempting to force Saddam from power. These nations want both to avoid the impending U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, and are advocating a general amnesty following Saddam's fall, according to both Focus and Der Spiegel.
                    Killing kids is no easy matter for western troops. It's something we don't, and really can't train for. I pray this don't come to pass. Yet, I fear given the desperate military situation Iraq faces, Saddam will activate these forces.
                    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Re: And....

                      Originally posted by Cheetah772

                      A cute little kid that carries an AK-47 is just deadly as an adult trotting a machine gun.

                      If I were a soldier and just saw a kid pointing an AK-47 at me, I would not hesitate in shooting him first. Never mind how old that kid is.
                      Good points, an AK-47 can kill no matter who pulls the trigger.
                      "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                      Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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                      • #12
                        True, but who is pulling the trigger can affect our troops. Nothing can prepare soldiers for killing a child. I'm confident our soldiers will do what is necessary. It's moral impact killing kid soldiers that worries me.
                        "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Deltapooh
                          True, but who is pulling the trigger can affect our troops. Nothing can prepare soldiers for killing a child. I'm confident our soldiers will do what is necessary. It's moral impact killing kid soldiers that worries me.
                          Yes it is troubling indeed. However the adults who give the children the guns are to blame, not the soldiers who have to fire back.
                          "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                          Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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                          • #14
                            Well giving guns to say 10 or 12 year olds is a bit steep, but using say 14 or 15 year olds as non combatant auxileries when your country is being invaded is a desperate measure for sure but not entirely without justification. Anyone from 16 up who can use a gun in a situation like this I would say is morally justifiable. However kids of this age tend not to be militarily effective and most would either freeze up, shoot wildy or run off in combat situations so why bother with them. No doubt there would be a few brave souls but if I was a military commander I would not bother with them really.
                            http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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                            • #15
                              Re: Re: Re: Re: And....

                              Originally posted by Marko


                              If those aren't the words of a baby-killer then I don't know what are.

                              George Bush is the evil one - and his daughter is a ***** who need shooting in the face.
                              Marko,

                              Humm, am I a baby-killer? No way. I believe in the principles of self-defense. I would rather live than sacrificing myself to a foreign kid in some distant nation handling a dangerous weapon aimed at my own fellow countrymen. No sir, Marko, I am going to kill that kid before he kills me, the end of story, period.

                              As far I am concerned about Saddam's family, I would rather shoot them dead, lest one of them alive would rise again to wreck havoc on Middle East.

                              George Bush is not an evil, Saddam and OBL are evil men, period. George Bush won through electoral votes and Supreme Court's decisions without holding somebody at gunpoint or torture them, meanwhile Saddam and OBL rose to the occasion by killing and oppressing their own people. OBL conducts terrorist operations aimed at civilian targets inside America, which is a cowardly act.

                              I don't know about his daughter, personally, I find her attractive, and by the way, she's in college, it doesn't make her a *****. I prefer her to Saddam's daughter (If he has one) who would probably kill any man in bed....

                              Dan
                              Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                              "Aim small, miss small."

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