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The Logic of Religion

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  • The Logic of Religion

    In light of the recent religious discussions here, I figure this would be a good intro into what exactly religion is.

    "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
    --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

  • #2
    In light of how the man begins by essentially saying you are to just assume he is right, and then proceeds to explain why you should just accept that he is right...

    This is NOT an explanation about what religion is at all. It's what it is, bible thumping.

    They are not disccusing non bible religions, there will be no mention of anything not connected to the Bible at all.

    I'll TELL you what religion is (and won't take as long as this individual did).

    It's that shred of hope you were sold when you asked, where do I go when I die.
    It's that shield you are handed when you are afraid of whatever it is you can't see out there in the dark that has you scared.

    Everything else is just more and more and more bullshit meant to keep you under the thumbs of the people claiming to have the answers.
    Life is change. Built models for decades.
    Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
    I didn't for a long time either.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by les Brains View Post
      In light of how the man begins by essentially saying you are to just assume he is right, and then proceeds to explain why you should just accept that he is right...
      Yes, he's explaining the logic of religion, and in logic you have to begin with certain assumptions and proceed from there. These assumptions are called axioms. Without accepting these axioms, you're not going to get anywhere but just keep moving around in circles.
      "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
      --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

      Comment


      • #4


        Well the problem with the statement, is there is little logic in any of his assumptions.

        ax·i·om (ks-m)
        n.
        1. A self-evident or universally recognized truth; a maxim: "It is an economic axiom as old as the hills that goods and services can be paid for only with goods and services" (Albert Jay Nock).
        2. An established rule, principle, or law.
        3. A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate.

        1. Self evident truth? No, they are telling you it's truth and stop questioning or thinking is more like it.

        2. Established rule, well I think it's be long ago that religion has no desire to accept anything that is contradictory, because it screws everything up if you do.

        3. Oh they have this mastered though. Proof? we don't need no stinking proof.

        I'd have had more respect for the show if they had at least tried to accept that some people think more of Buddhism than the Biblical beliefs. The Shinto beliefs don't seem to matter to them either. Just written off as pagan and 'wrong'. I mean he's explaining religion as if nothing else mattered external to the Bible.

        I've essentially decided I guess to begin with counter assumptions.

        It's self evident he's biased and intolerant of anything but his viewpoint.
        It's fairly well established too that these people simply are not going to change.
        And I have such incredible mountains of proof that if you push them hard enough, they can be just as violent as any suicide bomber.
        But it's been a while since crusades were popular, and witch burnings seem out of fashion these days. But they don't seem to have any trouble killing pro choice supporting doctors.
        And they sure like to think god is on their side. Well they mention him often enough while conducting official governmental duties.
        Last edited by LRB; 10 Apr 10, 20:18.
        Life is change. Built models for decades.
        Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
        I didn't for a long time either.

        Comment


        • #5
          Both Christian and non-Christian (e.g. Islamic) agendas are fueling the rise in global radicalism. If people can't find a common denominator so they could talk on a neutral ground regardless of personal beliefs then we're in trouble.

          "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
          --Frederick II, King of Prussia

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by les Brains View Post
            I'll TELL you what religion is (and won't take as long as this individual did).

            It's that shred of hope you were sold when you asked, where do I go when I die.
            It's that shield you are handed when you are afraid of whatever it is you can't see out there in the dark that has you scared.

            Everything else is just more and more and more bullshit meant to keep you under the thumbs of the people claiming to have the answers.
            I don't have working speakers at the moment so I don't know what this guy in the YouTube video said. However in response to your post I feel you are being a bit shallow.

            Religion as a technical definition is a philosophical discipline that involves moral conduct and the existance of a divine, usually creator being. It does not neccessarily involve talking about the afterlife (Sadducees believed there was none). Beyond the technical aspects no one man can really state what religion is or isn't since the difference of philosophies and theologies throughout history often results in religion being whatever it is in the eye of the beholder.

            For you it may be "that shred of hope you were sold when you asked, where do I go when I die and "that shield you are handed when you are afraid of whatever it is you can't see out there in the dark that has you scared.". For me it's about alleviating the pain of the suffering, giving families to those who have none and then nurturing and protecting those families. For me the hereafter isn't much of a talking point. Whatever happens will happen irregardless so I don't spend much time trying to work it out. The problems are in the here and now so here and now is where I focus.

            For you "Everything else is just more and more and more bullshit meant to keep you under the thumbs of the people claiming to have the answers." For me, I have been in too many debates and discussions with my pastor to have any notion of being kept under anybody's thumb. There are no sentry posts to keep congregants in the building so I don't really see any evidence of power and control. For me, Christianity is a civic action where church members participate with an equal stake in building and preserving the community.
            A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

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            • #7
              I prefer to go back farther than Christianity and the Bible though to trace the origins of religion.

              Not only did the Christians and the Bible not invent religion, but if there is a god, he's not a man.

              Humanity spoke of mother earth and gaia looooooong before any of the cooky whimsical male dominated Bible was written.

              They can call it paganism if it makes them feel superior, but the truth is what it is. And my 'shallow' explanation is still accurate in describing where religion came from in the dawn of human existence.
              Life is change. Built models for decades.
              Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
              I didn't for a long time either.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by les Brains View Post
                I prefer to go back farther than Christianity and the Bible though to trace the origins of religion.

                Not only did the Christians and the Bible not invent religion, but if there is a god, he's not a man.

                Humanity spoke of mother earth and gaia looooooong before any of the cooky whimsical male dominated Bible was written.

                They can call it paganism if it makes them feel superior, but the truth is what it is. And my 'shallow' explanation is still accurate in describing where religion came from in the dawn of human existence.
                You are quite correct, Les. Early religions openly embraced women as the symbol of fertility and new life, and priestesses were quite common up until the rebellion of Christianity and their systematic suppression of women into a secondary role.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by les Brains View Post
                  I prefer to go back farther than Christianity and the Bible though to trace the origins of religion.
                  So do I.

                  Originally posted by les Brains View Post
                  Not only did the Christians and the Bible not invent religion, but if there is a god, he's not a man.

                  Humanity spoke of mother earth and gaia looooooong before any of the cooky whimsical male dominated Bible was written.
                  That's getting into the Dungeons and Dragons notion of ancient religion and it is patently false. First of all you're getting Euro-centric with the Gaia reference. Second, we have no clue what preistoric religions were like in terms of dogma for the plain and simple reason that, lacking literacy, they didn't keep records.

                  Originally posted by les Brains View Post
                  They can call it paganism if it makes them feel superior, but the truth is what it is.
                  Paganism simply refers to non-Christian religion. The Christian equivalent of Gentile. It is a technical definition.

                  Originally posted by les Brains View Post
                  And my 'shallow' explanation is still accurate in describing where religion came from in the dawn of human existence.
                  Afraid not my friend. None of us can describe the motivations of prehistoric religion since we have no record to study. It is arrogant foolishness to assert you can understand the movtivations of people you know nothing about. It's tricky enough understanding how a deceased culture functions when you actually DO have written records.
                  A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    You are quite correct, Les. Early religions openly embraced women as the symbol of fertility and new life, and priestesses were quite common up until the rebellion of Christianity and their systematic suppression of women into a secondary role.


                    Wow, MM you really need to study ancient religion. Let's dispense with the fanciful, whitewashed Dungeons and Dragons notion of women in religion and take a look at what real fertility worship was like.

                    It's true that women were seen as signs of fertility and did function as "priestesses" in such celebrations, if you want to call them that. And I'm sure "religious obligation" was the reason given to the wives when the men went to "worship" with these "priestesses". You see fertility worship involved, to put this as mildly as possible, fornicating like a wild monkey. The women in these establishments were little more than sex slaves with fancy titles. Temple prostitution was big business in the Roman Empire - even in temples that didn't worship fertility, where do you think they got the cash to build those fancy buildings?

                    How very empowering indeed.

                    And now comes Christianity which says a man ought to be the husband of one wife and cherish her as if she were a part of his own body - emphasizing that spiritually she is a part of his own body, and that he ought to lay down his life for her as Christ laid down his life for the church.

                    Oh how tyrannical.

                    Christian haters relish their righteous indignation over one verse where Paul mentions he doesn't like women to teach but Biblical records show there were women in leadership roles, just not in the upper echelons. Imperfect? Yes. But let's compare notes.

                    Pagan Fertility Priestess Positives - Gets fancy title and some power and authority.

                    Negatives - Used as sex object by hundreds of men. Not neccessarily even a teenager when this starts happening.

                    Christian Woman Positives - Treated as the holiest of God's creations. Honored as a creation of value and beauty, treasured specially by one man.

                    Negatives - Can't run for deacon.

                    Yeah I can see how women would prefer the priestess role.
                    A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oh please Pirateship, you can do better than that.
                      Wisdom is personal

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                      • #12
                        Since religion is based on faith, which is not provable, any question about religion being logical is illogical to start with. IIRC we call that an oxymoron.
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                          Since religion is based on faith, which is not provable, any question about religion being logical is illogical to start with.
                          Blind, unprovable faith is a misnomer. Everyone has reasons for their beliefs. You may not agree with those reasons but the reasons are there. And they are still potent and meaningful reasons for religion still thrives. If religion were truly illogical it would have gone the way of alchemy.
                          A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Karri View Post
                            Oh please Pirateship, you can do better than that.
                            I'm sure I could. There are so many rose colored glasses revisionisms of pagan religious practices I could probably make a career out of listing them all. The New Age movement has given people a fanciful view of ancient pagans as some kind of tree hugging hippie commune. Reality was not so pleasant. The Roman religions were big on what can only be described as human trafficing while the Cathaginians and the Celts engaged in child sacrifice. This concept that life was just a bowl of cherries until those evil evil Christians came along is laughable and I will debunk whenever it pops up.
                            A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                              Since religion is based on faith, which is not provable, any question about religion being logical is illogical to start with. IIRC we call that an oxymoron.
                              How about this logic...

                              If an atheist is right and I (a Christian) am wrong then we both are in for naught but endless nothing.

                              If I am right (a Christian) and the atheist is wrong then he is in for eternal damnation/hell and I get streets of gold.

                              Later - Tater
                              "Why I have a greater affinity to Israel than to the Muslim world after 9/11: Watching a death-match fight on Animal Planet once, I found myself instinctively rooting for the mammal over the reptile."

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