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A non-Marko opinion from the UK ;)

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  • A non-Marko opinion from the UK ;)

    Wow this forum is dodgy... I just had to register and account to say something. First, a trivial thing which some of the Americans on this forum have been harping on about, and then to the point....

    I've heard several people demanding "thank you's" with regards the USA's efforts in the second world war. I can understand why you feel like this, but please just consider a point of view from our side of the water that will hopefully explain why what you say really pisses us off.

    Hitler had no desire to go to war with Britain, this is well known. Play though in your minds the likely course of world events if Britain (and France) had stayed out of the Hitlers war for lebensraum in 1939. Play it through for 5 or 10 years and you'll end up with a Russia, Eastern Europe and Balkans all under the control of a Super power Germany with Hitler at the helm.... with Nuclear weapons. From then on the scenario is just too scary to contemplate.

    So although undoubtedly the US contribution post 1942 was a major factor in a speedy victory for the allies, for which all the world SHOULD be grateful... perhaps also people should remember and give thanks to Britain(and commonwealth), who despite being against a far superior military power, decided to carry on the fight - standing alone in defence of Western democracy and values.

    For 3 years we stood alone having our cities destroyed - the city I live in is an ancient walled medieval port, but has no buildings in the city centre built before 1945... and no walls. Meanwhile the US, who blatantly had the manpower to turn the tide limited their help to economic aid (the profits of which lifted them out of the depression, which must have been nice) until Hitler declared war on THEM. Thanks, the aid helped a great deal, but c'mon.... can you see why we are reluctant to still be sending thank you cards? And can you see why when we're told "US owns you" or "if you were a real man not a Eurowimp you'd thank us buddy" we get ****ing pissed off?

    So what's the point? Does it really matter how pissed off Americans like Cheetah and Old Eagle make the rest of the world?

    When the news that 2 planes had hit the world trade center came into my office, I was, naturally, completely shocked and horrified. I remember clearly however, that my boss at the time (a south African not Euro btw) laughed out loud. He really thought it was the funniest thing he'd heard all week. I couldn't believe his attitude, and still can't. However, reading through some posts from people like Cheetah and Old Eagle on this forum it really doesn't suprise me how some people have come to hate the people of the united states so much that they'd imagine it was a bunch of assholes dying in those towers, not normal people.

    Seriously guys, do you have any idea how much damage people like you are doing to your country? Its such a shame that the reasonable and well thought out statements of the majority of Americans are drowned out by the rabid screams of a few.... and it is destroying the image of the US across the world, with the effects we saw on sept 11th 2001. If right wing, well educated South Africans have such a bad image of Americans in their head that they laugh when they see them suffer, is it any wonder that people who've had their houses destroyed by US tanks in Palestine or family killed by US bombs in Iraq hate Americans enough to dedicate their whole lives to killing them. And if there's one thing history has taught us, you can't beat terrorism by military power alone. You've got to win hearts and minds or the terrorists just keep coming.

    I'm not saying that what a couple of people say on an obscure forum is going to change the world in any way by itself, but the accumulation of this US "attitude" is greatly damaging to your country and those Americans who can see this really need to shout a bit louder to drown out their more bigoted countrymen.

    p.s. and yea, Marco is a fool. Anyone who posts endless "quotes" to back up their point of view without a single reference to where they came from is worth ignoring from the start. Marco, quotes without references are as interesting as saying "a bloke down the pub told me..."
    Last edited by Daw; 05 Feb 03, 03:44.

  • #2
    US BCW story written in the January/February 2003 Bulletin by the Atomic Scientists Professor Malcolm Dando and Mark Wheelis. Which incidently was written in the body of the text. Sorry for not listing all my sources. Should I redo them all ? I have my opinions, and I back them up with similar ways of thinking. What is so wrong with that ?

    Comment


    • #3
      Daw

      Whilst I respect your opinions and views. I do not respect you calling me a fool. there have been several posts lately warning of such offensive statements. Please do not resaort to such abusive attacks in the future, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

      P.S.

      Filling your posts with sweraing is not usually done either.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Marko
        Sorry for not listing all my sources. Should I redo them all ? I have my opinions, and I back them up with similar ways of thinking. What is so wrong with that ?
        hummm ok I'll explain it for you:

        Here's a quote:

        "There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq"

        Now, imagine the source was either

        a) Saddam Hussein
        b) Hans Blix
        c) George Bush

        Can you see that the source is more important to the message than the message itself? Just randomly quoting people and not saying who they are is meaningless.

        I think I learnt this in 3rd year history lol.

        Anyway, this post isn't about you, its aimed at the people you're winding up with your silly posts.

        Comment


        • #5
          I cringe every time I hear an American say "We saved your asses." Just know it isn't an opinion shared by all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Daw....

            Hello,

            It seems that you make out Americans like me some warmongers who's excited over the prospect of going to war.

            You make us out like monsters who love to kill civilians in the times of war.

            Come on, this is stupid. We're not doing anything that is harmful to America or to the world, it is YOU the world that is doing harmful to the world itself. Can you name a country that was willing to lead a campaign to remove Saddam Hussein by indirect means without America's help? None? Now, you see how afraid the world is? If you feel Great Britain has guts, then why your country -- Great Britain -- take the leading role without America's help before President Bush pushed through the resolution, you have to admit the fact, without President Bush doing this, there would never be inspections going on in Iraq. It's all done by Americans, not yours truly. Had we left Iraq alone, the world would NEVER ever push through a resolution demanding a return to inspections regime in Iraq. Your hypocrisy is getting a bit tired and old news to me.

            Fine, America can be hypocrite, fine with me, but don't be so sure that your country or the world isn't filled with such hypocrites.

            Palestinians? SOME of them were terrorists and had to be removed by the Israeli defense forces. Why are you insisting Israel to give up her land, her rights, her armed forces, and making Israel like monsters when it is PLO and other terrorist organizations with aid of Palestinians that are sending suicide-bombers to blow up Israeli malls, universities, shops, and other ordinary people's hangouts? Israel is there to stay, and is doing everything possible to stop suicide-bombers to hurting their country more than is already necessary. No, it is Palestinians who must stop their bloodthristy suicide-bombing campaign before Israel can stop and make some real efforts.

            Anyway, please stop linking Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the current Iraq crisis. It amazes me that the people continue to insist on this, it's absurd.

            Dan
            Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

            "Aim small, miss small."

            Comment


            • #7
              You know what would be really nice?If we could go back to debating the posistions of people on issues and not debating the people themselves

              Maybe this is the wrong thread for this post...i don't know.Its really getting tiring of having this forum sound like the7th grade.Lets all just respect each other a bit more and our differing political and historical views..now lets feel some love up in this place

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: A non-Marko opinion from the UK

                Originally posted by Daw

                Wow this forum is dodgy... I just had to register and account to say something. First, a trivial thing which some of the Americans on this forum have been harping on about, and then to the point....

                I've heard several people demanding "thank you's" with regards the USA's efforts in the second world war. I can understand why you feel like this, but please just consider a point of view from our side of the water that will hopefully explain why what you say really pisses us off.

                Hitler had no desire to go to war with Britain, this is well known. Play though in your minds the likely course of world events if Britain (and France) had stayed out of the Hitlers war for lebensraum in 1939. Play it through for 5 or 10 years and you'll end up with a Russia, Eastern Europe and Balkans all under the control of a Super power Germany with Hitler at the helm.... with Nuclear weapons. From then on the scenario is just too scary to contemplate.

                So although undoubtedly the US contribution post 1942 was a major factor in a speedy victory for the allies, for which all the world SHOULD be grateful... perhaps also people should remember and give thanks to Britain(and commonwealth), who despite being against a far superior military power, decided to carry on the fight - standing alone in defence of Western democracy and values.

                For 3 years we stood alone having our cities destroyed - the city I live in is an ancient walled medieval port, but has no buildings in the city centre built before 1945... and no walls. Meanwhile the US, who blatantly had the manpower to turn the tide limited their help to economic aid (the profits of which lifted them out of the depression, which must have been nice) until Hitler declared war on THEM. Thanks, the aid helped a great deal, but c'mon.... can you see why we are reluctant to still be sending thank you cards? And can you see why when we're told "US owns you" or "if you were a real man not a Eurowimp you'd thank us buddy" we get ****ing pissed off?


                It's true the British held out alone in Europe for a good deal of time. The British people showed real spirit and determination in 1940 and 1941. They could of cut a peace deal with Hitler and just let the matter rest. However they decided to fight on and for this America, Europe, and the rest of the world owes the UK a thank you.

                As for the lend lease aid being about profits, you need to go back to history class. $31 billion worth of aid was send to Britain alone, with only a small fraction of that repaid during the next several years. The United States government took on a huge debt to send all the tanks, planes, and ships to England.

                The United States did have a lot of manpower but did not want to join a war it didn't start. America got involved in WWI and this didn't work out well in the end.

                When the news that 2 planes had hit the world trade center came into my office, I was, naturally, completely shocked and horrified. I remember clearly however, that my boss at the time (a south African not Euro btw) laughed out loud. He really thought it was the funniest thing he'd heard all week. I couldn't believe his attitude, and still can't. However, reading through some posts from people like Cheetah and Old Eagle on this forum it really doesn't suprise me how some people have come to hate the people of the united states so much that they'd imagine it was a bunch of assholes dying in those towers, not normal people.

                Europe has a lot of a**holes too so not sure what that has anything to do with a building being destroyed.


                Seriously guys, do you have any idea how much damage people like you are doing to your country? Its such a shame that the reasonable and well thought out statements of the majority of Americans are drowned out by the rabid screams of a few.... and it is destroying the image of the US across the world, with the effects we saw on sept 11th 2001. If right wing, well educated South Africans have such a bad image of Americans in their head that they laugh when they see them suffer, is it any wonder that people who've had their houses destroyed by US tanks in Palestine or family killed by US bombs in Iraq hate Americans enough to dedicate their whole lives to killing them. And if there's one thing history has taught us, you can't beat terrorism by military power alone. You've got to win hearts and minds or the terrorists just keep coming.


                Nice speech! As for the South African hating America I could care less. Maybe he hates America for not supporting Apartheid anymore. Maybe he's just an a**hole. Who cares?

                As for the Iraqis or Palestines hating America that's up to them. However I don't recall 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorist being from either of those two groups. They were middle class Saudi Arabian students. America hadn't mistreated them yet they still hated America. Maybe it's not about America after all?

                It seems to me the richer and more well off a country is the more they hate America. Look at the epicenters today of anti-Americanism: France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, San Francisco. All places where the people are very wealthy and don't have to worry too much about starving. All place that America has helped over the years. Maybe the lesson is America shouldn't help anyone as this only breeds resentment.

                The poorer places in the world have far less anti-Americanism. These people know what it is like to live under truly evil governments (no Bush is not worse than Saddam). They know what it is like to live without freedom of speech or religion. They don't have the time to dream up ways America is holding them back. They are far too busy growing rice to eat to waste time like that.

                I'm not saying that what a couple of people say on an obscure forum is going to change the world in any way by itself, but the accumulation of this US "attitude" is greatly damaging to your country and those Americans who can see this really need to shout a bit louder to drown out their more bigoted countrymen.

                Much of the anti-American world would be better off not watching the news. Marco for one has said he is able to watch American news from the UK. These news channels give a false impression of the United States. The editors and producers of the news have their own political goals which aren't in tune with much of the country.

                Also I've seen a little of a BBC news show and I'd suggest you not watch that either.
                Last edited by Chuck?; 05 Feb 03, 21:41.
                "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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