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  • US Deployments

    I was going over some of the US military deployments mentioned in the Global Security Website that Deltapooh so graciously provided for us on another thread and an interesting thing comes to light.

    Most of the recently announced deployments are for support trades: MP's, Signals, Logistics, Medical....
    There's only 2 Mech. Brigades and 1 MEF of front line troops in the new announcements.

    Now looking at the Global Security website, I noticed that there is as much as 800 MBT's pre-positioned in the Persian Gulf area. Conventional wisdom right now is suggesting a quick strike with light forces at the heart of Iraq's center of gravity followed by a respectable ground force to link up.

    With the information provided by the GS website, I would suggest that a more conventional, robust attack might be in the offing.

    800 MBT's is enough to equip approx. 2 1/2-3 divisions. With the forces being sent now and those already in theatre, that would come to about
    3 1/2-4 1/2 divisions and 2-3 MEF's. Throw in the 101st Airborne, 7th & 4th Brit. Armd Bdes, Brit. Royal Marine Bde & assorted SOF and the Iraqi's have the makings of a nightmare waiting to happen.

    One question is whether the 3rd Div., of which 2 Bdes. will be deployed and 1 is in theatre, will bring their own vehicles or will they use the ones that are pre-positioned in Kuwait? My guess is they'll use the pre-positioned equip.

    Even so, how long does it take to move 30000-40000 people by air? Answer: not long. I still believe it'll start in the Feb.-Mar. time frame, but the speed with which it begins may surprise many people.
    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

  • #2
    The reason most of the new deployments are in the non-combat fields (MP's, Signals, Logistics, Medical) is because most reserve units are non-combat. There are basically no combat reserve units. It takes some time to get the reserves ready while the combat forces have been training for months.
    "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

    Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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    • #3
      We're gonna need alot more than 40,000 troops. 250,000-300,000 is a better number. I agree the force could be airlifted in rapidly if their equipment is pre-positioned. However, it could still take up to three weeks for these troops to link-up with their equipment and move to start positions. It could take much longer if the supplies are not forward deployed.

      I don't like the ideal of seizing Bagdad at the beginning of the operation. Commanders would gamble the 100,000 light infantry troops could capture and hold the city. These light troops would have to confront at least six RGFC divisions and numerous special units. Baghdad is a strongpoint for Saddam. It's also possess some symbolic importance. The Iraqis might choose to fight harder not out of fear, but duty to their country.

      If we do try to use the 101st AA to secure Baghdad, it could turn into a real bloodbath. Iraqi AAA and SAMs will shred our forces. They won't need radar guidance. The helicopters will be flying low and slow preparing to deposit troops. In addition, I don't think the helicopters have the range to reach Baghdad without at least one FARP. More could be required depending on weight, weather, and the route to the LZ or forward base. Establishing a FARP could be very dangerous, particularly if commanders want the helicopters to arrive at the time the main assault begins. We can't assume our troops will be able to cut communication lines in the area. The risk of compromise is very high.

      The airborne force would also need to seize a number of locations quickly. Personally, I place alot of emphasis on the damns along the Euphrates River to the north of the city. February and March are rainy seasons in Iraq if I'm not mistaken. If Saddam decides to blow those damns while our troops are in the area, it could result in enormous loss of life. We might end up wishing he used WMDs instead the power of nature. Coalition forces would also need to seize numerous strategic points all around Baghdad. That could stretch the force to it's limit and cause problems.

      I don't doubt the courage and skill of our forces. If commanders want Baghdad, the light force could take it. However, the cost could be unacceptable There are many things that can go wrong. If link-up with heavy troops are delayed, Saddam uses WMDs on the light force, the Iraqi's resist in force, etc all could lead to heavy casualties or even (if things really go to hell) defeat.
      "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Deltapooh
        We're gonna need alot more than 40,000 troops. 250,000-300,000 is a better number.
        I didn't mean the forces needed to fight the Iraqi's would total 30000-40 000.

        If you read the original post carefully, you can see that there could be as many as 7-8 Divisions of combat troops (including light forces). The 30000-40000 combat troops I'm talking about could be a surge deployment in the last week or two leading up to combat.
        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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        • #5
          On Sky News tonight it mentioned the following British forces are likely to be dispatched:

          40 th RMC Commando
          42 nd RMC Commando
          3 rd Para
          2 nd RIR
          SAS ( some already there )

          4th and 7th Arm. Brigades have been spotted putting in last minute training in Nth. Germany and painting up in Desert colours.

          HMS Ark Royal and HMS Ocean are to to lead a Naval Task force to the Gulf starting out next weekend.

          When those troops get there they will need about 3 to 4 weeks to acclimatise.
          http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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          • #6
            do you think an airborne drop into baghdad is likely?
            Doesn't read Al Franken, can't watch Al Jazeera, will attack dumbasses. Anyone but Rumsfeld '04.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Headshot
              do you think an airborne drop into baghdad is likely?
              I personally don't see that as likely to happen. It's a highrisk move with all the RGFC in the Bahgdad area. I CAN see light forces seizing an airfield near Bahgdad as a FOB though.
              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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              • #8
                Sorry tigersqn.

                Air Mobility Command could move between 30,000-40,000 troops in a days if the host nation has provided us with generous bases, and vital support assets are already in position and working. Each soldier requires a specific amount of supplies to survive daily. Even if all the supplies and equipment are pre-positioned, it will require over a hundred of flights daily to maintain the force. It would take between 405.4 and 540.5 sorties to move the troops into position. How fast they are inserted depends upon the airbase provided by the host nation. You must provide time for supply planes to land to sustain the force.

                AND THAT"S A BEST CASE SCENARIO involving light infantry units like Marines.

                The logistical requirements for sustaining eight divisions is staggering. Even if half the force is light, they could still consume more than 2,000,000 gallons of fuel per day (once on the move). In battle, they will probably eat up between 2,500 and 5,000 tons of ammunition. Urban warfare is very combat intensive. SOP calls for multiplying supplies by four for the infantry soldier. Then you have to consider our forces will likely strike along several fronts. Each front will require an independent logistical system. It will not be as intergrated as in 1991 where you saw one concentrated front a few hundred miles wide and deep.

                During DESERT SHIELD/STORM, Saudi Arabia provided the Coalition with all it's fuel requirements, among other things. They even bought 400 televisions for the troops. (Lt. Gen. Chuck Horner spent several hours on the phone looking a company that could meet this requirement. A lucky store in Georgia got the order.) I doubt they will be so helpful this time around.

                The main reason you are seeing the deployment of MPs, Signals, and other logistical support units, is because they are needed to establish and manage the pre-positioning of large stockpiles of equipment. We might have large ammo and fuel depos pushed near the LD. While it's an enormous risk, the tactic has many benefits. (1st MEF commander, Lt. Gen. Walt Boomer pushed most of his force's supplies just a few miles from the Kuwait/Saudi Border. When the Iraqi's attacked in late January, they came close to the dumps without knowing it. The lost of those supplies could have delayed the ground war.)

                Signals are needed to help set up communications lines and net them to the HQ. This early deployment illustrates our confidence in the lack of Iraqi intelligence. The establishment of communication and logistical lines are a shore way to tell if there is an impending attack. (At least that's my opinion.)

                The Coalition might opt for a crash deployment system. We might try to deploy the entire force in 10 days with troops at start points within 18-21, or sooner. This build-up has probably gone on for more than six months. Global Security first began reporting about unusual activity in the region as early as June of last year. Bases were rapidly being constructed, media access seemed to drop, etc. So it's very possible that almost everything we need is already in place, and we're just wrapping things up.

                I have to agree with tigersqn. I just don't see an air assault on Baghdad at H-hour. The risk are too great. This could be a clever deception operation. Saddam thinks we're gonna try to take OBJ Baghdad from the outset and has positioned most of his best forces in the area to resist. This will make our advance to secure the rest of the country easier.

                Saddam is not a skilled military man. He's more ignorant than Hitler. He's decided to isolate himeself. We don't need to take Baghdad to control the country. That can be achieved by eliminating the city's ability to be an HQ (cutting power and communications, sealing off the city). Saddam probably has fallen for another Coalition trick. We just need to be careful in isolating the city. Any force that is halted is a city duck for a chemical attack.

                Artillery employed in a city require alot of planning. In most cases, they require rather open areas to make sure rounds can clear buildings. This will make it possible for Coalition airpower to pound them. Saddam still have mortars armed with BC weapons. However, the range and accuracy could make them very ineffective. Finally, we could attack into the wind, thus dispersing non-persistant BC weapons. Iraqi troops will also hesitate about using mortars, special munitions, and grenades so close to their own positions.
                Last edited by Deltapooh; 07 Jan 03, 21:02.
                "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                • #9
                  British Defense Secretary announced in the HOC yesterday that in addition to 1,500 reservists called up he expected to tell the Commons of further call ups of Infantry and Armoured units in the coming days and weeks.

                  Looks like Britain will commit 1st Armoured Division, + One Marine Brigade. The Paras might be part of this or be slotted in for a seperate role. There will also be a Naval task Force + Air Units.

                  So this would give the following Divisions for the Invasion:

                  US

                  3 Inf Division

                  1 Inf. Division

                  1 Arm. Division

                  101 Airborne

                  2 x Marine Divisions

                  Will any of the 82nd see action or are they fully committed to Afghanistan? Also they might be needed if things turn bad in Korea!

                  + the British Units.

                  Also possible Australia might commit a battalion size force.

                  France might just throw in some light forces ( Foreign Legion; Paras?) Only if the UN gives the go ahead.

                  Anyone else think that the CIA might just direct the Un inspectors on to a WMD site prior to Jan. 27th. I don't know of course but I wouldn't be too surprised!
                  http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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                  • #10
                    Over the weekend, Rumsfeld ordered the deployment of 62 000 troops to the Gulf region. 35 000 were announced on Friday, 10 Jan. and another 27 000 on Saturday. I guess February looks like a good month to have a war!
                    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                    • #11
                      http://www.estripes.com/


                      ILLESHEIM, Germany – Spc. Mario Quinn and his buddies are packing up for a long trip.

                      For the past few days, almost around the clock, he and the rest of the troops from 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment have been loading trucks and trains with supplies for shipment somewhere in Southwest Asia. Few of the soldiers know where or when they’ll see this stuff again.

                      “I have no clue,” Quinn said. “I just know we’re deploying, to an unknown destination, for an unlimited amount of time.”

                      This week, the heavy lifting began for the Quinn’s regiment and several other V Corps units that received short-notice call-ups last weekend for indefinite deployments to the U.S. Central Command’s area of responsibility, which includes the Middle East. It’s widely assumed they’re preparing for an attack on Iraq. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld gave marching orders to about 90,000 troops in recent weeks, boosting the total force to about 152,000.

                      Soldiers from the 17th Signal Battalion in Kitzingen, Germany, and the 12th Aviation Brigade in Giebelstadt also began loading transport trains this week. They, too, are expected to rendezvous with their gear in the Middle East sometime next month. The three units combined will contribute nearly 2,000 soldiers.

                      Packing up for deployments is nothing new for these troops. Facing the threat of hostile fire on the other end is what’s unusual.

                      “I’m kind of nervous excited. I don’t know what to expect,” said Quinn, 21, who is facing his first combat deployment since joining the Army 18 months ago. “You’re more alert. You wake up in the morning and you think, ‘This is real.’”

                      The sudden deployment has turned Chief Warrant Officer Robert Elbert Jr., 32, into a busy man. He supervises logistics for the regiment. The past few days, he’s been making sure that every vehicle is ready.

                      “We have to make sure these vehicles will start once we get them where we’re going,” Elbert said.

                      This deployment is historic for the regiment because it will be deploying a squadron of the new AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopters. The Longbow, a high-tech “glass cockpit” upgrade that employs the old Apache airframe, has performed well in training but never been tested in combat.

                      “They’re very sophisticated, very digital,” said Col. Bill Wolf, the regimental commander. “We’ve harnessed the computer age.”

                      For the 17th Signal, this assignment is historic for a different reason. The battalion, formed 60 years ago, is being deployed to possible combat for the first time since World War II.

                      “It’s not extra pressure, but there is an added sense of excitement,” said Lt. Col Brian Moore, the unit’s commander. “They got up at midnight [Thursday morning] to get their pre-briefs and safety briefings.”

                      Flatbed railcars have lined up at the railhead at Kitzingen’s Harvey Barracks this week. Soldiers have been shoveling snow from the cars, driving their vehicles aboard, fastening wooden chalks to the tires and tying them down. The 12th Aviation soldiers will do the same through the weekend. All together, 500 to 600 pieces of equipment are being shipped from Harvey, said Lt. Col. Russ Hall, commander of the Kitzingen-based 417th Base Support Battalion.

                      One thing that won’t ride the rails is the helicopters themselves, said Heinz Urbach, a 12th Brigade spokesman. The unit’s 60 deploying aircraft — including UH-60 Black Hawks and CH-47 Chinooks — will fly to port. There workers will remove the rotors and stow them aboard ships for shipment.

                      While much of the war-fighting material already is on its way to the Middle East, the soldiers themselves aren’t leaving just yet. Army spokesmen say they will be deploying gradually over the next month.

                      Though most of the troops that would be used in a war against Iraq are being sent from the United States, V Corps has been asked to contribute thousands of Europe-based troops. Among the other units in the Middle East or headed that way:

                      • The headquarters staff, which deployed in October.
                      • The 11th Aviation’s 2nd Squadron, 6th Cavalry Regiment from Illesheim, which has been in Kuwait since October.
                      • The Vilseck-based 94th Engineer Battalion, which began deploying last week.
                      • The Hanau-based 5th Battalion, 7th Air Defense Artillery, a Patriot missile battery.
                      • The 578th Signal Company, based in Darmstadt.
                      • The Bamberg-based 54th Engineer Battalion.
                      • The Air Force’s F-16CJ Wild Weasels from Spangdahlem Air Base’s 52nd Fighter Wing.
                      Editor-in-Chief
                      GameSquad.com

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                      • #12
                        Deployment orders have been coming fast and furious lately.

                        Two more carriers (the Lincoln & Roosevelt)and another 17 000 ground troops in the latest round.
                        Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                        • #13
                          How many carriers is that now? Any left for North Korea?
                          "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                          Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

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                          • #14
                            I think thats 4 for the Gulf and the Kitty Hawk I think is still in Japanese waters
                            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                            • #15
                              I heard today that Australian forces are heading toward Kuwait. Can anyone confirm this?
                              Editor-in-Chief
                              GameSquad.com

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