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  • Losers win.....

    Its amazing that losers like Lee are considered as one of the greatest generals while winners like Grant are ranked behind him. Does this mean that the Tampa Bay Devil Rays are the greatest baseball team in the majors??

  • #2
    Losers win .....

    Gerald: More likely, they were going by Lee's pre-ACW command experience AND how much he was able to do for a 'nation' with very little industry, or infrastructure and for an even more politicized administration than Lincoln's. As one Confederate general (think it was J.E.B. Stuart) said, "If I destroy an army, all they do is raise another one." Not to minimize the command of Grant, but he had what must have seemed to his Confederate counterparts a veritable bottomless pit of men and materiel.
    Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
    (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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    • #3
      Re: Losers win.....

      Originally posted by Gerald
      Its amazing that losers like Lee are considered as one of the greatest generals while winners like Grant are ranked behind him. Does this mean that the Tampa Bay Devil Rays are the greatest baseball team in the majors??
      As much as I admire Grant for his doggedness and his ability to put into writing orders that had no ambiguity I don't think we would think as highly of him if he had fought for the South. With their roles reversed I think Lee would still be very highly regarded as a Northern general.
      Lance W.

      Peace through superior firepower.

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      • #4
        Loser's Tactics

        What are your thoughts about "losers" tactics that are rapidly copied by their victors? Hannibal, Lee, Jackson, Forrest, the Boers, Guderian, Rommel all had tactics copied to some degree by the forces that defeated them. Doesn't that alone say something about their skills.
        Lance W.

        Peace through superior firepower.

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        • #5
          The baseball analogy would be a good player on a bad team. Being on a bad team doesn't make the skillful player less so.

          Being on the losing (or winning) side doesn't negate the skill of any particular general.
          " If it be now, tis not to come: if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all"

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          • #6
            Re: Losers win.....

            Originally posted by Gerald
            Its amazing that losers like Lee are considered as one of the greatest generals while winners like Grant are ranked behind him. Does this mean that the Tampa Bay Devil Rays are the greatest baseball team in the majors??
            No but even last place teams can have "all stars"
            Lance W.

            Peace through superior firepower.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Losers win.....

              Originally posted by Gerald
              Its amazing that losers like Lee are considered as one of the greatest generals while winners like Grant are ranked behind him. Does this mean that the Tampa Bay Devil Rays are the greatest baseball team in the majors??
              Lee is considered as one of the greatest generals of the Civil War because he out fought and out generaled his opposing numbers . He caused the Lincoln administration to fire Mc Clellan, Pope, Hooker, Burnside, because they couldn't defeat Lee.

              It wouldn't be until Meade and Grant took over that the Army of the Potomac would best the Army of Northern Virginia and Lee.
              Lee was a master of battlefield tactics. He was a engineer for most of his career and could look at the land and pick out the best positions for defense . His use of earthworks at Cold Harbor and Petersburg helped twart Grant's advance against Richmond for as long as he did.

              Lee also commanded the respect of his men and the government. as well.

              You also must look at Lee's staff as well, he had some of the best commanders in Longstreet, Jackson, Stuart, in the Confederate Army.

              Lee

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              • #8
                Re: R.E. Lee

                Another thing about Lee that is often overlooked is that since he was the head of West Point in the 1850's he had a big hand in training many of the officers (both North and South) that would later fight in the ACW. This is one of the reasons he was so widely respected on both sides.
                Lance W.

                Peace through superior firepower.

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                • #9
                  Guess panache goes a long way.
                  Delegate, MN GOP.

                  PATRIA SI, COMUNISMO NO

                  http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...?id=1156276727

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SGT Long
                    Guess panache goes a long way.
                    And I though Lee used up all of his panache in the Mexican War.
                    Lance W.

                    Peace through superior firepower.

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                    • #11
                      He caused the Lincoln administration to fire Mc Clellan, Pope, Hooker, Burnside
                      With a record like that, Lee was one of the best generals on the Union side.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Losers win.....

                        Originally posted by Gerald
                        Its amazing that losers like Lee are considered as one of the greatest generals while winners like Grant are ranked behind him. Does this mean that the Tampa Bay Devil Rays are the greatest baseball team in the majors??
                        I find it odd that you attack RE Lee and call him a loser, but you have the photo of another loser, Nappy, as your avatar.

                        Others have defended RE Lee ahead of me while I was otherwise and unavoidably occupied, and I add an AMEN to each of them.
                        Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                        Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                        "Never pet a burning dog."

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                        • #13
                          Everyone loved Lee, the Union tried to get him on their side but he fought for Virginia instead. Lee was a man of god and liked by his troops, Grant was a crazy drunked hobo. (he wasn't really but you can't tell that from his pictures)
                          "If my theory of realitivity is proved true, then France will declare me a citizen of the world and Germany will call me a German. However, if it is proved untrue, then France will call me a German, and Germany a jew."

                          -Albert Einstein

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                          • #14
                            I think the memory of Grant is tarnished by what occured during his presidency some time after the war. Since a good portion of Civil War buffs are in the South, Lee is going to be revered more. I see this today when I go to a re-enactment as part of the Federal Army (AoP) and in situations where we should outnumber the South by at least 2 to 1, they outnumber me by 3 or 4 to 1. Chalk part of this up to the great "what if?" question. In the end, I don't consider Lee a loser anyway because of his great victories and his ability to continue fighting honorably as long as he did. What I can't understand is why people consider Meade such a winner.....Gettysburg wasn't exactly a decisive blow to the South. Meade was lucky that he had Chamberlain protect the flank at Little Round Top and then have Lee make the stupid mistake of throwing 15,000 men at an entrenched position defended by massive amounts of cannon.
                            Edit: I forgot to add that Meade let Lee get away across the Potomac and into Virginia without putting up much of a chase. He had the single, largest oppertunity to end the war there and failed to do it.

                            -Bob
                            Pvt. Bob Mana,
                            Co. B, 3rd Maryland Vol. Infantry, 1st Brigade, 1st Division, 12th Corps, Union Army of the Potomac

                            For the Union

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                            • #15
                              Grant was a crazy drunked hobo.
                              accually,He was bankrupt when He died and the alcohol abuse has already been well documented.
                              Delegate, MN GOP.

                              PATRIA SI, COMUNISMO NO

                              http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...?id=1156276727

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