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just throwing this out

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  • just throwing this out

    I have my own opinion on this, but I will throw the subject out for general discussion and then interject my own opinion.

    If we were ever to face a nation with a real navy the modern super carrier would soon prove to be obsolete.

  • #2
    Yap. Once the USA navy goes up against a REAL navy we'll get 0wN3d. :crazy: :crazy: :P

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    • #3
      Re: just throwing this out

      Originally posted by motoman
      I have my own opinion on this, but I will throw the subject out for general discussion and then interject my own opinion.

      If we were ever to face a nation with a real navy the modern super carrier would soon prove to be obsolete.
      What navy? :crazy:

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ChickenSalad
        Yap. Once the USA navy goes up against a REAL navy we'll get 0wN3d. :crazy: :crazy: :P
        *real*? USN isn't *real*?

        PRC Navy isnt *real*? India's Navy isn't *real*?

        Wonder if they know....

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jeff norton
          *real*? USN isn't *real*?

          PRC Navy isnt *real*? India's Navy isn't *real*?

          Wonder if they know....
          I think that the Japanese have a real Naval force, perhaps the most powerful after the US Navy.

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          • #6
            I guess my point is that it is a fortunate thing that we have the only true blue-water navy left in the world. Not because our navy is not the most powerful, most capable navy in the world, but because the modern super carrier, if facing a foe with similar fire power would probably last just long enough to get it's planes off the deck.

            The problem is that a carrier is one huge target and is worth taking almost suicidal losses to take out.

            Worse yet, a Nimitz-class CVN cannot be replaced in a time of anything less than years.

            In a real surface engagement (something I grant we will probably not see in our lifetimes) the carriers would soon be gone and the ones remaining in the respective fleets would quickly be Harbor queens too powerful to face, but too valuable to risk.

            Worse, still, from my point of view, is that, as Tom Clancy once pointed out, without the carriers the US Navy is just one more frigate navy, even our vaunted Ticonderoga-class crusiers are really just destroyers. No navy in the world currently has a major surface combatant larger than a light cruiser.

            If, as I maintain, modern carriers in a real surface engagement would soon go bye bye, we don't have the throw-weight in our other ships to do much of anything.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by motoman
              I guess my point is that it is a fortunate thing that we have the only true blue-water navy left in the world. Not because our navy is not the most powerful, most capable navy in the world, but because the modern super carrier, if facing a foe with similar fire power would probably last just long enough to get it's planes off the deck.

              The problem is that a carrier is one huge target and is worth taking almost suicidal losses to take out.

              Worse yet, a Nimitz-class CVN cannot be replaced in a time of anything less than years.

              In a real surface engagement (something I grant we will probably not see in our lifetimes) the carriers would soon be gone and the ones remaining in the respective fleets would quickly be Harbor queens too powerful to face, but too valuable to risk.

              Worse, still, from my point of view, is that, as Tom Clancy once pointed out, without the carriers the US Navy is just one more frigate navy, even our vaunted Ticonderoga-class crusiers are really just destroyers. No navy in the world currently has a major surface combatant larger than a light cruiser.

              If, as I maintain, modern carriers in a real surface engagement would soon go bye bye, we don't have the throw-weight in our other ships to do much of anything.
              10 000 ton destroyers eh?

              Boy their makin 'em big these days.

              If the US Navy of today ever met a similarly equipped force in battle, the same advantages & disadvantages of the force, save one, would exist for both sides : the US Navy has a wealth of experience in operating a large carrier Navy and IMO would make short shrift of their opponent. As always, experience of the men operating the various systems onboard will make the difference.

              BTW, those "Ticonderoga" class cruisers of which you speak have a hell of a lot more striking power than any destroyer in the popular WW II sense of the word.
              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by motoman
                I guess my point is that it is a fortunate thing that we have the only true blue-water navy left in the world. Not because our navy is not the most powerful, most capable navy in the world, but because the modern super carrier, if facing a foe with similar fire power would probably last just long enough to get it's planes off the deck.
                I am not sure what you mean here, are you just speaking of Battleships or Aircraft carriers? Cause I want to see that non-aircraft carrier surface ship with the guns that have the range to get past the plan screen and sink an aircraft carrier.

                That being said I guess nukes would work well, but if the other side starts to use nukes they have some bigger problems than our aircraft carriers.
                Originally posted by motoman
                The problem is that a carrier is one huge target and is worth taking almost suicidal losses to take out.
                Yeah, lucky it is not as easy to do as it is to say!
                Originally posted by motoman
                Worse yet, a Nimitz-class CVN cannot be replaced in a time of anything less than years.

                In a real surface engagement (something I grant we will probably not see in our lifetimes) the carriers would soon be gone and the ones remaining in the respective fleets would quickly be Harbor queens too powerful to face, but too valuable to risk.
                You mean like WWII?
                Originally posted by motoman
                Worse, still, from my point of view, is that, as Tom Clancy once pointed out, without the carriers the US Navy is just one more frigate navy, even our vaunted Ticonderoga-class crusiers are really just destroyers. No navy in the world currently has a major surface combatant larger than a light cruiser.
                So if we didn't have those obsolete carriers our navy would be nothing? :crazy:

                I seem to remember we have a bunch of ballistic missile subs and we also have a bunch off surface ships that can launch cruise missiles. I really ain't feeling you argument here.
                Originally posted by motoman
                If, as I maintain, modern carriers in a real surface engagement would soon go bye bye, we don't have the throw-weight in our other ships to do much of anything.
                Please define what you mean by a "a real surface engagement".

                Comment


                • #9
                  The point is that a similarly equipped navy could, if it was willing to accept enough losses in aircraft take out a carrier.

                  Additionally, your point about cruise missles is well taken. However, enough cruise missles fired at a CBG will overwhelm any defense.

                  Also, i really don't think we are too many years from the point when computer directed, radar guided point defense is going to make manned aircraft over the battlefield a suicide option.

                  As for unmanned aircraft, the control systems are too easily jammed to make them a real option against a equally technologically advanced opponent.

                  In any event, this topic was mostly started just as a way to foster discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of the modern military.

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                  • #10
                    Hello,

                    lease define what you mean by a "a real surface engagement".

                    Thanks!

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                    • #11
                      I would have thought that was self explanitory, a "real surface engagement" is a general fleet action.

                      something i grant will probably not happen again anytime soon. I started this thread merely as a theoretical exorcise.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by motoman
                        I would have thought that was self explanitory, a "real surface engagement" is a general fleet action.

                        something i grant will probably not happen again anytime soon. I started this thread merely as a theoretical exorcise.
                        It is not clear. Do you mean one without carriers or where both sides have aircraft carriers?

                        This already happnened in WWII. The carriers proved more valuable than the battleships.

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                        • #13
                          I think his point is that were the USN ever to face an equal in some serious naval battles, the carriers would be irresistable targets (for both sides), and when they're all (eventually) sunk, what's really left to call a 'super' navy? The carriers are the heart of the fleet, and yet their very value makes them almost a liability.

                          Of course, as motoman says, it's all totally hypothetical, as that kind of thing seems to have gone the way of the dodo.
                          "When I am abroad I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the Government of my country. I make up for lost time when I am at home."

                          Winston Churchill

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                          • #14
                            So... carriers would be primary targets... just like they were fifty years ago... no surprise there LOL! Of course, I seriously doubt our squids would simply float there and let a potential enemy get the first shot off...

                            Sorry to sound sarcastic... well... not really...

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                            • #15
                              Playing devil's advocate, we can note that weapon systems of today are infinitely more accurate and destructive; so, given two equally matched fleets, neither one may be able to fully utilize the CVs and protect them at the same time.
                              "When I am abroad I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the Government of my country. I make up for lost time when I am at home."

                              Winston Churchill

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