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  • Originally posted by Geek44 View Post
    Totally Sal. I never accused the US of anything I don't accuse Australia of also.
    In my observations, OZ is just as diverse as the US. It is MHO that the US is more immigrant friendly. What country on earth has as many illegals or the tolerance to deal with them?

    There's nothing like a bit of 'We've got the bombs' as a comeback I note.
    I'm not so sure what you mean, except that there are plenty of countries that benefit from the security that is provided by the "US having the bomb", yet condemn the US for the methods by which that security is provided.
    Last edited by Salinator; 08 Dec 07, 00:39.
    Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

    Prayers.

    BoRG

    http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

    Comment


    • If Oz had a land border with anybody things might be different. But to be sure, our biggest group of illegal immigrants are actually British tourists who out-stay their visas. I notice nobody is in much of a hurry to deport them. They're white, speak English and integrate.

      I think that your second point is a purely American idea. I don't feel personally protected by the US from attack by eg. Indonesia. It strikes me that if Indonesia invaded our north, the US would be more likely protecting 'it's vital interests' in the region ie. iron, tin, zinc, lead, copper, URANIUM, coal etc. Not to mention the US base at Pine Gap, access to ports and airfields etc. But we're digressing my friend. My 'bombs' comment was not directed at you.
      Peace.
      The truth? You can't handle the truth! No truth handler you! I deride your truth handling abilities!
      Sideshow Bob.

      Comment


      • My God and we thought we had a problem!!!

        If Oz had a land border with anybody things might be different. But to be sure, our biggest group of illegal immigrants are actually British tourists who out-stay their visas. I notice nobody is in much of a hurry to deport them. They're white, speak English and integrate
        .

        HP
        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
          My God and we thought we had a problem!!!

          .

          HP
          Yeah...they drink our beer, take our jobs, marry our women and bring their god-awful 'cuisine' with them.
          The truth? You can't handle the truth! No truth handler you! I deride your truth handling abilities!
          Sideshow Bob.

          Comment


          • 'cuisine'
            Glad you put that in brackets.
            Eternal War(gaming) Armoured Struggle Car Bob

            History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis.
            Lazarus Long

            Draw the blinds on yesterday and it's all so much scarier....
            David Bowie

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Geek44 View Post
              If Oz had a land border with anybody things might be different. But to be sure, our biggest group of illegal immigrants are actually British tourists who out-stay their visas. I notice nobody is in much of a hurry to deport them. They're white, speak English and integrate.

              I think that your second point is a purely American idea. I don't feel personally protected by the US from attack by eg. Indonesia. It strikes me that if Indonesia invaded our north, the US would be more likely protecting 'it's vital interests' in the region ie. iron, tin, zinc, lead, copper, URANIUM, coal etc. Not to mention the US base at Pine Gap, access to ports and airfields etc. But we're digressing my friend. My 'bombs' comment was not directed at you.
              Peace.
              Fair enough, my friend.

              Flag: USA / Location: West Coast

              Prayers.

              BoRG

              http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8757/snap1ws8.jpg

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PtsX_Z3CMU

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                Ok RF

                PHP Code:
                If you think that Arizona was a state full of bigots simply because they didn't jump on the bandwagon and approve the Martin Luther King holiday, (neither did I. I think the holiday is a joke...[COLOR="Red"]ask me if you want to know why)...[/COLOR] 
                This is a response to Half Pint's inquiry about why I was against the King Holiday, as was the state of Arizona.

                Most of us on this thread who are Americans will probably remember a controversy concerning the state of Arizona's refusal to adopt the King holiday.

                Well, I was against it too.

                When the Arizona state legislature made this decision, they condemned themselves in the eyes of black America. Without regards to their reasons, the state was labeled as a racist enclave almost overnight, and became frequent targets of black comedians, musicians, and actors. Stevie Wonder tried (unsuccessfully) to convince the band U2 to stop playing concerts in Arizona. The TV show In Living Color went so far as to slyly suggest that Arizona was ruled by the KKK or some such thing. Rap group Public Enemy blasted the state in a song called "By the Time I get to Arizona." Of course, no one seemed to care why the Arizona state government made the decision they made. They refused to accept a black American's birthday as a federal holiday and that was that. They were bigots, end of story.

                So what does this mean? Do something black America doesn't like and that makes you a bigot?

                It must be great to be a minority. You can toss around the word 'racist' to rally people against anything you don't like. No one will ask any questions, no one will check their facts. No one wants to be labeled as a racist, and thus, people will come out of the woodwork to prove that they aren't, and that sometimes means being publicly against some person or group that has been labeled as such. It's the same thing that women's groups did with 'sexual harassment' in the 90s, the government did with 'communist' in the 50s and similarly did with 'anarchist' in the 20s. Also, it's eerily similar to what the Catholic Church did...using 'heretic' to turn support against anyone who did something they didn't agree with.

                No, as a matter of fact, I don't think this was any different.

                Ask yourself a question.

                First, let's say this much. Black America was tired of not having one of their own commemorated by a federal holiday. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Christopher Columbus have theirs. Where are the black Americans who have contributed greatly to the course of American history?

                So someone settled on Martin Luther King.

                Why him? I don't deny that he was a great man. I might even go so far as to suggest that he was the real deal. He was a press-***** who cheated on his wife, but that's far less than many great Americans heroes have done. I personally like the guy. When you keep fighting the good fight when the KKK, the FBI, and pretty much half the country despise you, that's pretty gutsy. And the very fact that he was assassinated in broad daylight tends to lend some credence to the fact that the man risked his life to make his point known.

                I have had many black friends. Some of the places I've lived, if I hadn't had any black friends, I wouldn't have had any friends at all. I've had black shipmates I would have laid my life down for, and anyone who's been in the military knows what I mean. When I was studying for my Bachelor's Degree, I took a black history course at the University of New Mexico. I came to a rude shock. Not many whiteys in the class. But the black students showed me something that makes me wince.

                Martin Luther King Jr was the only significant black historical figure that most of them had ever heard of, and then, most still couldn't tell you anything about the man. They knew that he was a prominent civil rights activist from the 1950s and 60s, that he had some dream, talked about being free, free at last, and eventually got shot.

                And that was about it. Most of my classmates got their information about Malcom X from that Spike Lee movie.

                I'm sorry to generalize, but it seemed to me that black Americans are passionate about their history without knowing anything about it.

                Was that a racist statement? If you think it is, read on, and you will see you are wrong. If you will think me a racist regardless of what remains to be read in this post, just go ahead and stop reading now. It's obvious you're just going to miss the point.

                Some of you saw that Chris Rock stand-up special on HBO, called "Bring the Pain." He talked about something very similar. The only name he heard in a black history course was Martin Luther King Jr. I had the exact same experience, and Chris Rock really knew what he was talking about.

                I'm half white and half Mexican, and I know far more about black history than most black Americans. Pardon me, but before you turn activist or try to enforce your ideas on the public, it might help to know what the hell you're talking about.

                In that class, names were mentioned by the professor that were well known to me, but virtually unknown to any of my classmates, again, most of whom were black.

                Some knew the name Harriet Tubman but didn't know anything about her, about how after she escaped slavery she returned to the South many times to free slaves from their masters, which was one hell of a risk to take. And it seemed to be news to a great many that she served as a nurse and a spy for the Union Army during the Civil War.

                Does the name Elijah McCoy ring a bell? He was a college-educated black man in the 19th century who could only get a job as a train oilman. Trains back then had to stop frequently to re-oil their engines. He, being a genius, invented a machine that dripped oil automatically. His invention inspired a host of imitators, and people often wondered upon seeing such a device if it was a McCoy design or a knock-off. They began asking a question that we still ask today. Is that the real McCoy?

                Garret A. Morgan...mean anything to you? He invented the traffic light. If you've ever driven a car, then yes...he has impacted your life.

                Or Marcus Garvey, who started the "Back to Africa" movement in the 1920, and frequently went about in a Napoleon outfit?

                Many black Americans have heard of Benjamin O. Davis Jr, commander of the 332nd Fighter Group, the famed Tuskeegee Airmen. But far fewer know the first thing about his father. His influence as the first black general in US military history directly led to the desegregation of the US military in 1947. If you're black, and you are or were in the armed forces, remember that name.

                Or Edgar Huff, the first black sergeant major in US Marine history? His career was the stuff of legends. When he retired, he got a congratulatory phone call from no less than George Wallace, the high priest of latter-day segregation.

                What about Benjamin Bannaker? In the wake of the American Revolution, he was a surveyor who set the groundwork for American interest in astronomy, surveyed the land that later became Washington DC, and published an almanac that rivaled Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanac.

                Or Martin Delaney, the highest ranking black officer during the Civil War, who was brevetted a major?

                Do modern blacks know that Bill Cosby was the first black actor to star in a TV show?

                Do they know that Nat King Cole was the first black to host one?

                Have they ever heard of Eugene Bullard, the first black American military pilot?

                And so on and so forth?

                Let me make this point abundantly clear. I didn't oppose the King holiday because the man was black. Get over it.

                Why did I do it?

                Because I'm against people shoving someone in front of me, demanding I regard them as a great person on par with other great Americans, simply because they haven't heard of anyone else.

                If black Americans really wanted someone to represent them as a federal holiday, perhaps someone out there should have done some research. If they had, they might have come up with a man who would have been far more appropriate.

                Who?

                Fredrick Douglass.

                That's right. I said it. He was born a slave, published his own abolitionist newspaper, campaigned for equal pay for black troops in the Civil War, also campaigned for women's and Indians' rights, and had the ear of no less than Abraham Lincoln. He braved death threats, had eggs hurled at him during his speeches, and toughed it all out to become (what I regard) as one of the most incredible people this nation, perhaps this world has ever produced. If there is a heaven, King is probably bowing his head as Douglass walks by.

                If he had gotten the holiday, I would have been all for it.

                I have spoken to more than one well-educated black person about this, and when I tell them what you've just read in the last paragraph, many think that my point is quite valid, and that he should be the greatest in the pantheon of great black Americans...perhaps great Americans period. Those that don't know history so well just sort of look at me funny.

                I have spoken my peace.
                Last edited by RapierFighter; 09 Dec 07, 04:09.
                "Yellowstain!"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RapierFighter View Post
                  This is a response to Half Pint's inquiry about why I was against the King Holiday, as was the state of Arizona.

                  Most of us on this thread who are Americans will probably remember a controversy concerning the state of Arizona's refusal to adopt the King holiday.

                  Well, I was against it too.

                  When the Arizona state legislature made this decision, they condemned themselves in the eyes of black America. Without regards to their reasons, the state was labeled as a racist enclave almost overnight, and became frequent targets of black comedians, musicians, and actors. Stevie Wonder tried (unsuccessfully) to convince the band U2 to stop playing concerts in Arizona. The TV show In Living Color went so far as to slyly suggest that Arizona was ruled by the KKK or some such thing. Rap group Public Enemy blasted the state in a song called "By the Time I get to Arizona." Of course, no one seemed to care why the Arizona state government made the decision they made. They refused to accept a black American's birthday as a federal holiday and that was that. They were bigots, end of story.

                  So what does this mean? Do something black America doesn't like and that makes you a bigot?

                  It must be great to be a minority. You can toss around the word 'racist' to rally people against anything you don't like. No one will ask any questions, no one will check their facts. No one wants to be labeled as a racist, and thus, people will come out of the woodwork to prove that they aren't, and that sometimes means being publicly against some person or group that has been labeled as such. It's the same thing that women's groups did with 'sexual harassment' in the 90s, the government did with 'communist' in the 50s and similarly did with 'anarchist' in the 20s. Also, it's eerily similar to what the Catholic Church did...using 'heretic' to turn support against anyone who did something they didn't agree with.

                  No, as a matter of fact, I don't think this was any different.

                  Ask yourself a question.

                  First, let's say this much. Black America was tired of not having one of their own commemorated by a federal holiday. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Christopher Columbus have theirs. Where are the black Americans who have contributed greatly to the course of American history?

                  So someone settled on Martin Luther King.

                  Why him? I don't deny that he was a great man. I might even go so far as to suggest that he was the real deal. He was a press-***** who cheated on his wife, but that's far less than many great Americans heroes have done. I personally like the guy. When you keep fighting the good fight when the KKK, the FBI, and pretty much half the country despise you, that's pretty gutsy. And the very fact that he was assassinated in broad daylight tends to lend some credence to the fact that the man risked his life to make his point known.

                  I have had many black friends. Some of the places I've lived, if I hadn't had any black friends, I wouldn't have had any friends at all. I've had black shipmates I would have laid my life down for, and anyone who's been in the military knows what I mean. When I was studying for my Bachelor's Degree, I took a black history course at the University of New Mexico. I came to a rude shock. Not many whiteys in the class. But the black students showed me something that makes me wince.

                  Martin Luther King Jr was the only significant black historical figure that most of them had ever heard of, and then, most still couldn't tell you anything about the man. They knew that he was a prominent civil rights activist from the 1950s and 60s, that he had some dream, talked about being free, free at last, and eventually got shot.

                  And that was about it. Most of my classmates got their information about Malcom X from that Spike Lee movie.

                  I'm sorry to generalize, but it seemed to me that black Americans are passionate about their history without knowing anything about it.

                  Was that a racist statement? If you think it is, read on, and you will see you are wrong. If you will think me a racist regardless of what remains to be read in this post, just go ahead and stop reading now. It's obvious you're just going to miss the point.

                  Some of you saw that Chris Rock stand-up special on HBO, called "Bring the Pain." He talked about something very similar. The only name he heard in a black history course was Martin Luther King Jr. I had the exact same experience, and Chris Rock really knew what he was talking about.

                  I'm half white and half Mexican, and I know far more about black history than most black Americans. Pardon me, but before you turn activist or try to enforce your ideas on the public, it might help to know what the hell you're talking about.

                  In that class, names were mentioned by the professor that were well known to me, but virtually unknown to any of my classmates, again, most of whom were black.

                  Some knew the name Harriet Tubman but didn't know anything about her, about how after she escaped slavery she returned to the South many times to free slaves from their masters, which was one hell of a risk to take. And it seemed to be news to a great many that she served as a nurse and a spy for the Union Army during the Civil War.

                  Does the name Elijah McCoy ring a bell? He was a college-educated black man in the 19th century who could only get a job as a train oilman. Trains back then had to stop frequently to re-oil their engines. He, being a genius, invented a machine that dripped oil automatically. His invention inspired a host of imitators, and people often wondered upon seeing such a device if it was a McCoy design or a knock-off. They began asking a question that we still ask today. Is that the real McCoy?

                  Garret A. Morgan...mean anything to you? He invented the traffic light. If you've ever driven a car, then yes...he has impacted your life.

                  Or Marcus Garvey, who started the "Back to Africa" movement in the 1920, and frequently went about in a Napoleon outfit?

                  Many black Americans have heard of Benjamin O. Davis Jr, commander of the 332nd Fighter Group, the famed Tuskeegee Airmen. But far fewer know the first thing about his father. His influence as the first black general in US military history directly led to the desegregation of the US military in 1947. If you're black, and you are or were in the armed forces, remember that name.

                  Or Edgar Huff, the first black sergeant major in US Marine history? His career was the stuff of legends. When he retired, he got a congratulatory phone call from no less than George Wallace, the high priest of latter-day segregation.

                  What about Benjamin Bannaker? In the wake of the American Revolution, he was a surveyor who set the groundwork for American interest in astronomy, surveyed the land that later became Washington DC, and published an almanac that rivaled Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanac.

                  Or Martin Delaney, the highest ranking black officer during the Civil War, who was brevetted a major?

                  Do modern blacks know that Bill Cosby was the first black actor to star in a TV show?

                  Do they know that Nat King Cole was the first black to host one?

                  Have they ever heard of Eugene Bullard, the first black American military pilot?

                  And so on and so forth?

                  Let me make this point abundantly clear. I didn't oppose the King holiday because the man was black. Get over it.

                  Why did I do it?

                  Because I'm against people shoving someone in front of me, demanding I regard them as a great person on par with other great Americans, simply because they haven't heard of anyone else.

                  If black Americans really wanted someone to represent them as a federal holiday, perhaps someone out there should have done some research. If they had, they might have come up with a man who would have been far more appropriate.

                  Who?

                  Fredrick Douglass.

                  That's right. I said it. He was born a slave, published his own abolitionist newspaper, campaigned for equal pay for black troops in the Civil War, also campaigned for women's and Indians' rights, and had the ear of no less than Abraham Lincoln. He braved death threats, had eggs hurled at him during his speeches, and toughed it all out to become (what I regard) as one of the most incredible people this nation, perhaps this world has ever produced. If there is a heaven, King is probably bowing his head as Douglass walks by.

                  If he had gotten the holiday, I would have been all for it.

                  I have spoken to more than one well-educated black person about this, and when I tell them what you've just read in the last paragraph, many think that my point is quite valid, and that he should be the greatest in the pantheon of great black Americans...perhaps great Americans period. Those that don't know history so well just sort of look at me funny.

                  I have spoken my peace.
                  Excellent reply, written from an American point of view.

                  Well done.

                  Question for all members AND your black fellow citizens (derived from Rapiers reply)...

                  Should Fredrick Douglas be nominated for a holiday because he's black or because he's an American?

                  Gaz

                  Comment


                  • Yup. Nobody tells RF what to do. No Sir. 'Get over it'.
                    The truth? You can't handle the truth! No truth handler you! I deride your truth handling abilities!
                    Sideshow Bob.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by allsirgarnet View Post
                      Excellent reply, written from an American point of view.

                      Well done.

                      Question for all members AND your black fellow citizens (derived from Rapiers reply)...

                      Should Fredrick Douglas be nominated for a holiday because he's black or because he's an American?

                      Gaz
                      Because he was a great MAN, who just happened to be from America.
                      "Yellowstain!"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MountainMan View Post
                        Rascism is not, in simple fact, "America's problem". It was present in the world long, long before this nation was ever founded. Racism is an imported problem from Old Europe, beginning with the savage brutalies, rape, slavery and cultural destruction of the native peoples of the Americas by the Spanish and French, and the colonial ambitions of virtually all of the Old European nations.

                        :
                        While I agree with your first statement, that racism isn't just America's problem, your second statement that it was imported from Old Europe is total and utter nonsense.
                        Anyone who has done even a little study of the history of the native peoples in both North and South America before the arrival of the Europeans, will know that tribal warfare was every bit as bloody as the conflicts in Europe, and that the natives did partake in "savage brutalies,rape, slavery, and the cultural destruction" of other tribes, long before a white person ever set foot in the America's.

                        Comment


                        • This country is very racist. Anyone that says they are not a racist or bigot then I say they are wrong. I will not go into it anymore on these public forums.
                          Last edited by medevac; 12 Dec 07, 06:16.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by redcoat View Post
                            While I agree with your first statement, that racism isn't just America's problem, your second statement that it was imported from Old Europe is total and utter nonsense.
                            Anyone who has done even a little study of the history of the native peoples in both North and South America before the arrival of the Europeans, will know that tribal warfare was every bit as bloody as the conflicts in Europe, and that the natives did partake in "savage brutalies,rape, slavery, and the cultural destruction" of other tribes, long before a white person ever set foot in the America's.
                            Thank you for giving me the opportunity to agree with someone from across the pond. It's a rare occasion. Indeed racism, slavery, and genocide happen in just about every locality and anyone who thinks the northern and southern tribes were pacifistic garden of eden dwellers is fooling themselves. Heck, the Mayans were even more brutal than the Europeans who conquered them.
                            A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by medivac View Post
                              This country is very racist. Anyone that says they are not a racist or bigot then I say they are wrong. I will not go into it anymore on these public forums.
                              Well I guess that settles the debate!
                              A new life awaits you in the off world colonies; the chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by RapierFighter View Post
                                This is a response to Half Pint's inquiry about why I was against the King Holiday, as was the state of Arizona.

                                Most of us on this thread who are Americans will probably remember a controversy concerning the state of Arizona's refusal to adopt the King holiday.

                                Well, I was against it too.

                                When the Arizona state legislature made this decision, they condemned themselves in the eyes of black America. Without regards to their reasons, the state was labeled as a racist enclave almost overnight, and became frequent targets of black comedians, musicians, and actors. Stevie Wonder tried (unsuccessfully) to convince the band U2 to stop playing concerts in Arizona. The TV show In Living Color went so far as to slyly suggest that Arizona was ruled by the KKK or some such thing. Rap group Public Enemy blasted the state in a song called "By the Time I get to Arizona." Of course, no one seemed to care why the Arizona state government made the decision they made. They refused to accept a black American's birthday as a federal holiday and that was that. They were bigots, end of story.

                                So what does this mean? Do something black America doesn't like and that makes you a bigot?

                                It must be great to be a minority. You can toss around the word 'racist' to rally people against anything you don't like. No one will ask any questions, no one will check their facts. No one wants to be labeled as a racist, and thus, people will come out of the woodwork to prove that they aren't, and that sometimes means being publicly against some person or group that has been labeled as such. It's the same thing that women's groups did with 'sexual harassment' in the 90s, the government did with 'communist' in the 50s and similarly did with 'anarchist' in the 20s. Also, it's eerily similar to what the Catholic Church did...using 'heretic' to turn support against anyone who did something they didn't agree with.

                                No, as a matter of fact, I don't think this was any different.

                                Ask yourself a question.

                                First, let's say this much. Black America was tired of not having one of their own commemorated by a federal holiday. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Christopher Columbus have theirs. Where are the black Americans who have contributed greatly to the course of American history?

                                So someone settled on Martin Luther King.

                                Why him? I don't deny that he was a great man. I might even go so far as to suggest that he was the real deal. He was a press-***** who cheated on his wife, but that's far less than many great Americans heroes have done. I personally like the guy. When you keep fighting the good fight when the KKK, the FBI, and pretty much half the country despise you, that's pretty gutsy. And the very fact that he was assassinated in broad daylight tends to lend some credence to the fact that the man risked his life to make his point known.

                                I have had many black friends. Some of the places I've lived, if I hadn't had any black friends, I wouldn't have had any friends at all. I've had black shipmates I would have laid my life down for, and anyone who's been in the military knows what I mean. When I was studying for my Bachelor's Degree, I took a black history course at the University of New Mexico. I came to a rude shock. Not many whiteys in the class. But the black students showed me something that makes me wince.

                                Martin Luther King Jr was the only significant black historical figure that most of them had ever heard of, and then, most still couldn't tell you anything about the man. They knew that he was a prominent civil rights activist from the 1950s and 60s, that he had some dream, talked about being free, free at last, and eventually got shot.

                                And that was about it. Most of my classmates got their information about Malcom X from that Spike Lee movie.

                                I'm sorry to generalize, but it seemed to me that black Americans are passionate about their history without knowing anything about it.

                                Was that a racist statement? If you think it is, read on, and you will see you are wrong. If you will think me a racist regardless of what remains to be read in this post, just go ahead and stop reading now. It's obvious you're just going to miss the point.

                                Some of you saw that Chris Rock stand-up special on HBO, called "Bring the Pain." He talked about something very similar. The only name he heard in a black history course was Martin Luther King Jr. I had the exact same experience, and Chris Rock really knew what he was talking about.

                                I'm half white and half Mexican, and I know far more about black history than most black Americans. Pardon me, but before you turn activist or try to enforce your ideas on the public, it might help to know what the hell you're talking about.

                                In that class, names were mentioned by the professor that were well known to me, but virtually unknown to any of my classmates, again, most of whom were black.

                                Some knew the name Harriet Tubman but didn't know anything about her, about how after she escaped slavery she returned to the South many times to free slaves from their masters, which was one hell of a risk to take. And it seemed to be news to a great many that she served as a nurse and a spy for the Union Army during the Civil War.

                                Does the name Elijah McCoy ring a bell? He was a college-educated black man in the 19th century who could only get a job as a train oilman. Trains back then had to stop frequently to re-oil their engines. He, being a genius, invented a machine that dripped oil automatically. His invention inspired a host of imitators, and people often wondered upon seeing such a device if it was a McCoy design or a knock-off. They began asking a question that we still ask today. Is that the real McCoy?

                                Garret A. Morgan...mean anything to you? He invented the traffic light. If you've ever driven a car, then yes...he has impacted your life.

                                Or Marcus Garvey, who started the "Back to Africa" movement in the 1920, and frequently went about in a Napoleon outfit?

                                Many black Americans have heard of Benjamin O. Davis Jr, commander of the 332nd Fighter Group, the famed Tuskeegee Airmen. But far fewer know the first thing about his father. His influence as the first black general in US military history directly led to the desegregation of the US military in 1947. If you're black, and you are or were in the armed forces, remember that name.

                                Or Edgar Huff, the first black sergeant major in US Marine history? His career was the stuff of legends. When he retired, he got a congratulatory phone call from no less than George Wallace, the high priest of latter-day segregation.

                                What about Benjamin Bannaker? In the wake of the American Revolution, he was a surveyor who set the groundwork for American interest in astronomy, surveyed the land that later became Washington DC, and published an almanac that rivaled Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanac.

                                Or Martin Delaney, the highest ranking black officer during the Civil War, who was brevetted a major?

                                Do modern blacks know that Bill Cosby was the first black actor to star in a TV show?

                                Do they know that Nat King Cole was the first black to host one?

                                Have they ever heard of Eugene Bullard, the first black American military pilot?

                                And so on and so forth?

                                Let me make this point abundantly clear. I didn't oppose the King holiday because the man was black. Get over it.

                                Why did I do it?

                                Because I'm against people shoving someone in front of me, demanding I regard them as a great person on par with other great Americans, simply because they haven't heard of anyone else.

                                If black Americans really wanted someone to represent them as a federal holiday, perhaps someone out there should have done some research. If they had, they might have come up with a man who would have been far more appropriate.

                                Who?

                                Fredrick Douglass.

                                That's right. I said it. He was born a slave, published his own abolitionist newspaper, campaigned for equal pay for black troops in the Civil War, also campaigned for women's and Indians' rights, and had the ear of no less than Abraham Lincoln. He braved death threats, had eggs hurled at him during his speeches, and toughed it all out to become (what I regard) as one of the most incredible people this nation, perhaps this world has ever produced. If there is a heaven, King is probably bowing his head as Douglass walks by.

                                If he had gotten the holiday, I would have been all for it.

                                I have spoken to more than one well-educated black person about this, and when I tell them what you've just read in the last paragraph, many think that my point is quite valid, and that he should be the greatest in the pantheon of great black Americans...perhaps great Americans period. Those that don't know history so well just sort of look at me funny.

                                I have spoken my peace.
                                An excellent post, RF. Personally, I would vote for George Washington Carver; however, my opposition to the holiday arose from another direction - each and every nationality in America has similar people who contributions should be honored. How many holidays can the nation afford? And can you legally honor someone like MLK while turning your back on all the other great controbutors to America? Who was the greater contributor to America, MLF or Thomas Edison? Henry Ford? Fulton? Whitney? Tesla? Sutter? The Wright Brothers? Salk? Yeager? Kennedy? Einstein? Hubble? The Irish? The Poles? The Germans? The Italians? The French? The Russians?

                                How can anyone pinpoint one man from one racial group and declare him "great" and worthy of a holiday when he stands as a single individual in a virtual sea of others of equal or greater magnitude? You cannot, and that is why I oppose the holiday.

                                Honor all or honor none, for no one stands higher than another.
                                Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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