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  • Americans: stupefied by fear ?

    Now that I got your attention...

    I really start to question myself whether there is any rational thinking official left in your government, or are you all run by fear and hysteria ?
    For example the latest terror alert: so some 3-4 years old information are discovered that AlQaeda members were observing several buildings (not even specific attack plans) and you immediately rise the terror alert, block all trucks from entering a whole section of New York, police men in cevlar vests and with machine guns man every street, patrol the subways, check everybody who wants to enter a public building... and for what ? I mean, hello, how stupid do you think these AlQuaeda terrorists are? If you close off a sector ... don't you think they'll just wait a week until you have to allow the trucks to drive again ? And that would be even better for any terrorist, because now far more trucks than usual would bee in the streets because they have to deliver the goods they couldn't a week ago, now in a rush, and with so many trucks on the street hiding between them would be even easier. Oh, and a terrorists truck loaded with explosives... how should a policeman on the street be able to stop/identify it ?? Do they expect them to drive around with huge letters telling "I am a terrorist and this is a bomb" ??
    Only thing to do would be a checkpoint at every street corner, every truck or van had to be checked, the result would be total chaos and a breakdown of all traffic.

    That is total paranoia, you are acting hysterical instead of remaining calm. Lets be totally honest here, once a terrorist is driving on his way to his target there is only very little you can do to stop him unless you have detailed information or something goes wrong with the terrorists plan. So all those extra police forces on the street do nothing, except costing large sums of money, diverting their attention from other important police tasks, only visually showing 'the state is doing something' and remaining everybody 'we are a state in danger', but having no effect.

    The only effective measures against terrorists are intelligence measures, infiltrating their structure, observing their actions and than quickly and silently taking them out with as few civilian casualties as possible.

    America is a nation in fear and people living in fear are easier to manipulate. Have you ever wondered why you are living under constant 'Yellow Alert' ? Why there are almost daily terrorist warnings and remainder that you should always be prepared,... but nothing has happened over the last three years ? No major terrorist attack in the USA, no terrorists caught in the USA who were planing attacks, no terrorists caught in foreign nations who were specifically planing new attack on the USA ? Maybe AlQaeda is a far lesser of a threat than your government always tries to make you belive ? I know they are dangerous, I know they need to be taken out but you don't need to let your lives be dominated by a constant vague feeling of beeing threatened. It's probably more likely to die in a crossfire of a gang war than a terrorist attack.

    Yet this fear has changed so much in your daily lives, patriot act, prejudiced against any muslim, spending billions of $ under the 'war against terror' context with almost no results but enraging the rest of the world, especially arabic nations and thereby probably giving birth to several new wannabe-terrorists, restrictions of your freedom and your rights...

    America: Land of the free ???

    OK, flame away!
    "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

    Henry Alfred Kissinger

  • #2


    terrorist hunters... without words
    "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

    Henry Alfred Kissinger

    Comment


    • #3
      "OK, Lady, any CarBombs in there??"

      "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

      Henry Alfred Kissinger

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, it is interesting.

        I just read a book on the German spying on USA and UK in the WWII.
        They could take photos everywhere and none of them was cpatured before the war has started. After that the governments announced a general warning on the spies. And interestly most of the German spies were captured by this high alert of the civilians.

        Most of the actions (not just the actual terrorist act) can be seen by civilians but they not realize this is a terrorist preparation so they let it go, but in high alert these preparations catch the eyes of the civilians.

        Another interesting in the book, most of the spies were German origin people. They trusted them, and they loved their ex-home country...

        So I agree, the actual police in the street cannot do much, it is a waste of money, but the alertness of the civilians are more important. (Of course in the long term it is against the democracy. The Gestapo was a very weak organization, sometimes one agent in a city, but many people loved to make reports on other people/neighbours/workmates... and the Gestapo/police/Kripo could know everything in that city.
        a brain cell

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        • #5
          I'm sure you would rather us not do anything and have another terrorist attack, right?

          I find your whole post alarmist and ill-conceived.

          You are basing your whole rant on unverified information from suspect sources. Not surprised, as your country also believed that Jews were the devil and should be exterminated,...again, something based on the rantings of a madman.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CPangracs
            I'm sure you would rather us not do anything and have another terrorist attack, right?
            And you would rather want to wast money on unproductive measures that only freak out the general public ? How about painting every 50m on every road: "Beware of terrorists!" Costs lost of money, will look as if it's productive but will it accomplish anything ??

            I don't say stopp hunting terrorists, I am only saying stop your hysterical behaviour, there are so many ways a terrorist can attack you, there is no way to defend yourself against it other than catching the terrorist BEFORE he can get moving. How about a terrorists infect himself with a deadly virus and than starts travelling the USA ?? Would you like to counter this possible threat by quarantining everybody who wats to visit the USA for 4 weeks ???

            I find your whole post alarmist and ill-conceived.

            You are basing your whole rant on unverified information from suspect sources.
            here is my suspect source with it's usually unverified information
            another rather suspect source

            Not surprised, as your country also believed that Jews were the devil and should be exterminated,...again, something based on the rantings of a madman.
            What does the history of my country has to do with your current paranoia ?
            But oh well: "Your country now belives that muslims are the devil and should be exterminated, based on the ranting of (your choice)"

            better now ?
            Last edited by Kraut; 03 Aug 04, 08:07.
            "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

            Henry Alfred Kissinger

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
              I just read a book on the German spying on USA and UK in the WWII.
              Well, compare the current situation with the cold war, everybody knew that warsaw pact spies were in the USA but were their almost daily telivision reminders that "the enemy is among us"? Were there heavily armed police men patroling the streets to catch warsaw pact spies? Why was there no patriot act back than or did the 'communist hysterica' of the Carter era helped catching just one communist spy (instead of just creating wide spred panic) ? No, so how is the current situation any different, AlQuaeda is a far lesser threat than the soviet nuclear arsenal yet the entire US is so completely fraked out that their whole thinking now revolves about almost nothing else than AlQaeda.
              "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

              Henry Alfred Kissinger

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CPangracs
                ...
                You are basing your whole rant on unverified information from suspect sources. Not surprised, as your country also believed that Jews were the devil and should be exterminated,...again, something based on the rantings of a madman.
                And America was discovered because the journey was based on unverified information from suspect sources...

                (the other comment is just not fair today... )
                a brain cell

                Comment


                • #9
                  To a large extent you are correct Kraut. These terrorist alerts are based on vague and raw intelligence. Many of the precautions undertaken by law enforcement is ineffective. As National Security Advisor Rice once said, you need to know where the attack will occur, how, and at what time to be effective. There was an example of that some time ago, when very good intelligence came in that allowed a precise response. (It was in Europe.)

                  For the most part, I feel less confident with the Terrorist Alert system. Here we are one of the most powerful nations on the planet, armed with some of the best weaponry and skilled soldiers in history, and we are jumping like cowards at Bin Laden's every word. These alerts are extremely useful to terrorists because they can broadcast false information to determine how we are obtaining our information. More importantly, it provides them further evidence that America is more talk than substance.

                  The US government uses the terror alerts to cover their *sses, and scare Americans to support them. Bush is suppose to a "commander-in-chief" at war. It's been three years since 9/11 and with Iraq, people are asking whether not his position is one of choice or one of necessity.

                  Americans created this problem in part by failing to understand the complexity of intelligence gathering and responding to it. Bush and other politicians on both sides are exploiting it to their own gain, with less concern for the consequences.

                  If terrorists want to attack America, there is very little we can do about it. Intelligence will be inaccurate mainly because the terrorists operate in a very decentralized organization. I am more scared of getting struck by lightening while sipping Dr. Pepper in a pool during a major thunderstorm than I am of being killed by terrorist.

                  America would be foolish not to be concerned about terrorism. It is a real threat. We all know that. However, we need to show the terrorists their efforts will not cause us to abandon our ideals of freedom and liberty. The only things these countermeasures do is suggest to the terrorists that they are being more effective.

                  Macho Rant

                  Bin Laden can go *uck himself. He ain't about *hit. He's a *itch with no *alls. I'd kick his *ss, seduce his daughter, and sleep with her right in front of him, and all he would do is sit in a corner and cry. Bin Laden has spent his entire life trying to satisfy is lack of self-worth, and I'm here to tell him that I still don't think he's worth a buck and a quarter. I take comfort in the knowledge that when he is alone, he probably cries like *itch to the sounds of his father rejection. What a punk.

                  /End of Macho Rant I feel better now.

                  Seriously, while I think Bin Laden is a serious threat to the US and West, we need to take more interest in the image we project. Right now, I feel the terrorists see much of these security measures as a sign of success. What's worse, if an attack occurs despite these precautions, American confidence will suffer tremendously. Bush did a great job in the dark days following the 9/11 attack by standing a midst the debris and bodies of our dead to say America wasn't scared. I just wish he continued to portray this in a responsible manner.
                  "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kraut
                    Well, compare the current situation with the cold war, everybody knew that warsaw pact spies were in the USA but were their almost daily telivision reminders that "the enemy is among us"? Were there heavily armed police men patroling the streets to catch warsaw pact spies? Why was there no patriot act back than or did the 'communist hysterica' of the Carter era helped catching just one communist spy (instead of just creating wide spred panic) ? No, so how is the current situation any different, AlQuaeda is a far lesser threat than the soviet nuclear arsenal yet the entire US is so completely fraked out that their whole thinking now revolves about almost nothing else than AlQaeda.
                    This assessment is less than fair. The USSR presented a clear uniformed threat that was easily identifiable. Terrorism is obscure. Their is a closer relationship or identity with victims because people died while involved in rather mondane activities. There was no war. NORAD couldn't provide early warning. Basically, one morning people flipped on their television to see fellow countrymen dying on what was suppose to be another uneventful day.

                    So it might be unfair to compare the Cold War, which people had years to accept and cope with, to terrorism, which for many Americans is a rather new threat (at least in scale).

                    Having said that, it is the job of government to ease concerns and not feed off it. The reality is terrorism is something that happens and there is very little we can do about it. We must balance vigiliance with common sense, and resolve. I don't have a problem with going all out to prevent terrorist attacks if there is very good intelligence. However, I don't believe that is case now. The Bush Administration, and politicians in general, are pimping security concerns for protection and votes.

                    I don't believe barricades, police officers with submachine guns, and checkpoints enhance our security. We don't have the resources to protect all potential targets. Al-Qaeda terrorists are very well trained in urban guerilla warfare. These security measures simply will encourage terrorists to attack less significant (politically), but common targets such as schools, hospitals, and apartment buildings. Given our hieghtened concerns for national security, such attacks would be gravely demoralizing and might even encourage Americans to accept greater government control in exchange for protection.

                    So while I do agree with you Kraut that America is not addressing the threat appropriately, I don't think Americans have had the time to develop the kind of confidence that is required to deter exaggerated responses. The fear comes from seeing ourselves as potential victims. Every American was in New York and Washington DC. Coping with these concerns takes time and sound leadership. We are lacking in both at the moment.
                    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Does it surprise you Kraut? People have been saying for years that Americans are the new Prussians.

                      [zombie voice]

                      "We're turning the corner. Things are good. America is strong. Win the peace. Armies of compassion. Enemies of Freedom beware."

                      [/zombie voice]
                      Even Jesus will never forgive what you do - Bob Dylan

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                      • #12
                        Get a grip. Average Americans are going about their daily business. They are going to work, they are going on vacations, they are flying, they are congregating in large numbers at sporting events and other amusements. So what if there are more cops in sight than there used to be - Joe Six Pack has been wanting that for years but was and still is unwilling to pay the taxes needed to actually do it.
                        Last edited by MajorH; 03 Aug 04, 09:53.
                        Best regards, Major H
                        [email protected]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The US is merely getting to learn ASAP, what the Jews in Israel have spent several decades learning.

                          People want to kill them.

                          The Israelis have gotten used to it, or rather they know how to live with it.

                          They are surrounded by people wanting them dead, so they don't really find armed Israeli security forces all that "unusual".

                          The US is basically living in a world, where they are sort of surrounded by people wanting them dead.

                          Only solution is to just go on Yellow alert and leave it that way.
                          Put machine gun toting security forces in front of each and every single solitary building of any value at all.
                          Each major street corner in every single large urban center.
                          At every single airport and point of entry into the US.

                          In 10 years time I am sure no one will really notice the gun toting dudes ensuring that the peace is maintained as well as it is maintained in Israel (that was sarcasm by the way).
                          Life is change. Built models for decades.
                          Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
                          I didn't for a long time either.

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                          • #14
                            remember this french guy being arrested for staying in the toilets longer and telling a bad joke to stewards
                            looking forward to the new version of toaw

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by viridomaros
                              remember this french guy being arrested for staying in the toilets longer and telling a bad joke to stewards
                              I prefer to remember Richard Reid who was subdued on an American Airlines Paris to Miami flight while trying to set off a bomb - the explosives for which he purchased in the Netherlands.
                              Best regards, Major H
                              [email protected]

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