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  • Sarin used in Iraq

    Well atleast one of Sadams missing WMDs turrned up.

    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5166415

  • #2
    I could have done more damage with one of my infamous farts.

    The antidotes for sarin and similar agents are 100% effective if taken quickly enough; I hope there will be no shortage of those if something big happens.

    As for the missing WMDS...well, there's a good chance they're stored in private homes in Falujah and other centers of resistance. That's why nobody could find anything in the official Iraqi army warehouses.

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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    • #3
      A 155mm shell, even if filled with sarine, is hardly a WMD. It's a chemical weapon and a few thousands might be called WMDs but not a single shell :/
      "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

      Henry Alfred Kissinger

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      • #4
        Also, there's a chance the terrorist who had obtained that shell didn't know what he had. A sarin shell is like an ordinary HE shell except it might have some colored band around the nose. Or cryptic writing not obvious to ordinary people. It won't have "Sarin Gas" written on it.

        "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
        --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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        • #5
          Iranian said earlier: the US will bring some WMD to Iraq to prove the case.
          If it is not true:
          155mm shell would have been a big threat to US (a direct fire from Iraq to the USA, well, should be a big gun to do it)...

          (Still I don't want Saddam back)
          a brain cell

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          • #6
            Probably dug it out of a Kurdish village and thought it was unexploded artillery from '88, rigged it up as an IED.

            In any case, if anyone's still looking to make a case for WMD, they've got to find a real stockpile, not a random 155mm shell probably leftover from the Iraq-Iran war.
            "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

            – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

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            • #7
              in a word: Pathetic
              Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

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              • #8
                It's not even for sure that it was Sarin. According to the latest, it was only a field test that indicated Sarin, and if you recall the last time that people got their hopes up about an WMD find (mustard gas, IIRC) it didn't pan out, under laboratory testing.

                ...snip...
                Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials in Washington and Baghdad said on Monday that initial field tests indicated that the 155mm shell contained sarin.

                "Additional testing will be done outside of Iraq, more detailed testing. But the initial tests in the field show the presence of sarin," one U.S. official, who asked not to be identified, told Reuters in Washington.

                ...snip...

                Rumsfeld, responding to questions after a speech on Monday to the Heritage Foundation, a Washington think tank, said the testing could take some time.

                "I've seen intelligence on the matter you've raised. What you cited, I believe, was a field test, which is not perfect," he said. "What we ought to do is to get the samples someplace where they can be tested very carefully before coming to a conclusion as to precisely what it was."

                ...snip...

                Of course, these kinds of "Chicken Little" stories spread by the Admin every time the polls are slipping and they need to boost the pResident's standings, are just gobbled up by the Media. Too bad the retractions never get as much play.

                And some think we have an overwhelmingly "liberal" press...
                Last edited by JAMiAM; 17 May 04, 18:05.
                I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

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                • #9
                  I have a question for all of you:

                  Why are we so worked up over the justification of Operation Iraqi Freedom?

                  My point is that it's now moot whether it is justified or not, we need to focus on stablizing Iraq. Having said that, I still believe there remains some hidden WMD stockpiles, but right now, I would rather to have Coalition provide security for and to rebuild Iraq.

                  Dan
                  Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                  "Aim small, miss small."

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cheetah772
                    I have a question for all of you:

                    Why are we so worked up over the justification of Operation Iraqi Freedom?

                    My point is that it's now moot whether it is justified or not, we need to focus on stablizing Iraq. Having said that, I still believe there remains some hidden WMD stockpiles, but right now, I would rather to have Coalition provide security for and to rebuild Iraq.

                    Dan
                    Well we wouldnt have a rebuilding problem if we didnt smash it down. Why did we smash it down isstill an issue, and the wider issue of a War on Terrorism still needs work. Has it helped or hindered our cause? i say hindered
                    Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      from another site...

                      Iraq reported it resumed producing chemical warfare agents and filling chemical munitions at Al Muthanna in 1990.[23] US intelligence reports of observed transportation activity between Al Muthanna’s filling compound and storage areas in July and September of 1990 support Iraq’s claim.[24] Iraq began to fill artillery rockets in December 1990, and had filled 7,000 rockets by January 5, 1991. It filled an additional 1,320 rockets by January 9, 1991.[25]

                      Iraq reported it deployed these munitions to military depots before Operation Desert Storm. It moved 2,160 122mm rockets filled with a nerve agent from Al Muthanna to Khamisiyah between January 11 and 15, 1991, immediately before the air war.[26] UNSCOM stated that Iraq’s May 13, 1996, declaration reported 4,100 sarin-filled 122mm rockets stored at the Mymona depot and 2,160 at Khamisiyah. After the war, Iraq moved the rockets back to Al Muthanna.[27]

                      UNSCOM inspectors estimate that Al Muthanna’s Bunker 2 contained between 1,000 and 1,500 rockets of various types when it was destroyed.[28] The CIA accepts UNSCOM’s assessment that Iraq correctly reported the rockets in Bunker 2 were leaking or problem-plagued munitions filled in 1988 during the Iran-Iraq War. The CIA estimates the rockets destroyed in Al Muthanna’s Bunker 2 contained only sarin. Iraq also reported that the air attacks did not damage an additional 6,120 rockets stored in the open at Al Muthanna.[29]

                      Impure or improperly stored sarin is unstable and degrades over time. US experts consider chemical warfare agents less than 50 percent pure to be militarily ineffective.[3 Western sources estimate the sarin Iraq produced never exceeded 60 percent purity, and Iraq reported that poor operating practices at Al Muthanna limited the purity of sarin to between 20 and 50 percent. Since it contained at least 40 percent impurities when manufactured, sarin produced at Al Muthanna had a short shelf life.[31] The CIA estimates the chemical warfare agent in the rockets stored at Al Muthanna had deteriorated to approximately 18 percent purity by the time that Bunker 2 was destroyed, leaving about 1600 kilograms (1.6 metric tons) of viable sarin.[32]
                      Now listening too;
                      - Russell Robertson, ruining whatever credibility my football team once had.

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                      • #12
                        what the above means is that if it was active sarin, then the Iraqis have been engaged in creating WMDs

                        remember, chemical weaposn are classified as WMDs
                        Now listening too;
                        - Russell Robertson, ruining whatever credibility my football team once had.

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                        • #13
                          Who knows when or wher it was made or if it is active sarin, time will tell but i don't see it as evidence of anything as yet.
                          Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cheetah772
                            My point is that it's now moot
                            I disagree. Discourse on policy can help shape future policy. Accountability for past mistakes helps prevent future ones. No accountability - no public discourse to shape opinion - means personal careers come in first, national objectives second.

                            If nobody made a fuss about the WMD fiasco, why wouldn't the same mistake occur again, with potentially disastrous results.
                            "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                            – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It is unrealistic to assume that a country like Iraq can keep track of every single artillery shell, much less in an 8-year war as chaotic as the one with Iran.

                              The U.N. statement don't state whether single shells coming up count as violation of the agreement. These statements are made to be bent by the time they are evaluated.

                              In politics nobody ever makes anything as sharply yes/no as people wish they did. And in the case of the WMDs it makes sense. A single chemical shell? A single nuclear shell? You'd treat them the same?

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