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Some thoughts about evolution, why I fought creationism

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  • Some thoughts about evolution, why I fought creationism

    Hi Gents,



    I’m not only a red, I’m too a scientific and more exactly at the origin a palaeontologist.

    Very often here I spoke about evolution laws and fight against some people who are creationists. it means people imposing Bible against Evolution

    Here are some explanaiton about evolution to help on future possible debates
    Last edited by jlbetin; 11 May 04, 16:20.
    The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
    JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
    The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

  • #2
    Historical presentation and some definitions

    Evolution that’s a great word initiated by a French Scholar Jean LAMARCK in a opening discourse in 1800 which will be finaly published in Zoologic Philosophy (1809). He was the 1st to speak of evolution of living being by transmission of characters acquired during their life. But the master of the masters for the evolution theory is Darwin.

    I won’t make a teaching course here but I will try to explain what the evolution is and what it is not.

    The main definition of Darwin about evolution is the following one and it must be kept on mind

    Evolution is the adaptation of living beings to permit their survival to local modification of natural surrounding.

    Whooh what that’s mean, I will give an easy example

    Remember the film “Deep impact”, when the smallest of the two asteroids had fallen on earth, it issued a very big wave which is running over the US east coast.

    The young hero try to find his wife using a motorcycle, he was able to pass through traffic jam find her, took the baby of his mother in law and run as hell to join the top of mountain to avoid the drowning.

    In an evolutionary point of view the character Car don’t permit to the human population to escape the modification of the natural surrounding but the character motorcycle permit him to avoid the drowning, to survive and so to reproduce and so to transmit his genes.
    It is a very basic and trivial one but it can gives you the taste of what is really the
    evolution.

    Problem how those characters appears

    Our hero has the luck to find a motorcycle and it permits him to survive, ok but for animals?

    Until birth of genetics it was one of the best argument of Creationist again evolution. There were no explanations of how those modifications occurs.

    The second great motor of the evolution is mutation. A mutation is an alteration of the genetic material, which permits to enter random modification of genes in chromosomes. I won’t go further to be a simple as possible.

    In case of evolution the mutation must occurs in the sexual cells as spermatozoids or oocytes. Or during the fecundation process itself to be sure that the modification will be transmitted to the descendants

    Mutation enter an alteration of theDNA. Mainly 90% of the time alterations are neutral or lethal. Sometime their generate a modification of the embryo.

    In all of us there are mutations of our DNA it explains why all of us are different. But our reproduction don’t gives new species ??. Yes mainly because those mutations are lost in the crowd and can’t be reinforced, and the are no high pressure from environment which permit to isolate a specific mutation helping individuals to survive.

    But ..

    As you know malaria is a terrific disease lethal in many case but not to such a point it will put our specie in danger. It had been proved, that some people who have a mutation of red cells, falciform anomaly, do not contract this disease. In the area of the pandemic, people who have this mutation are more numerous than in other part of the world, because they have more chance to survive. If malaria has a new mutation, which make it more lethal there is a chance that only people who have this red cell anomaly will survive.
    Last edited by jlbetin; 11 May 04, 09:01.
    The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
    JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
    The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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    • #3
      Plant of evolution

      As one of you pointed it in a thread never a human being will have wings and scientist are not able to create new species by playing with DNA.

      Ok I will try to explain life evolution, mutation action, and species birth as simple as possible

      Imagine a plant making at the origin one good

      Beginning of plant there is a machine tool, robot like. This machine is under command of a software (the DNA). It is running on a rail road (to represent time). There is a house rule each time there is a major modification of the software a new branch of the railroad is generated and the new line never cross the initial one.

      So go on with our plant. The initial machine advance on the railroad and the software produce square of metal. Suddendly a mutation occurs the initial software is modified, a branching is created and we have now 2 machines, the one producing the square piece of metal and an other which produce not flat square but a curved one. Time continue, the machine making curver one square as a new modification od software and not only curved one square are produced now but there is new layer of metal. Now you have 3 lines.

      Now on one the production line responsible of square curved with 2 layers of metal a new modification occurs and the curve become a cylinder you have now 4 lines etc…

      If you look from a high point of view you have the beginning of a tree drawing.

      Time is passing there are thousands of lines most of them keep the basic scheme: cylinder with 2 layers of metal but suddenly the software get a major change and the cylinder is cut in 3 main area articulated, and this good produced is so effective that it generates millions on new lines.

      All lines have the same origin the “square metal”, but due to software random modification, there are adds which came and change the original model.

      This a simplified way of how species appears more and more complex but there is no goal at this complexification. It is a random process

      Did the lines continue forever ? answer is no. 1st the machine producing good get worn . ( A specie duration is mainly 1.000.000 year). Second time to time there are great eradications which removes lines. The eradications at now are mainly asteroids fall on earth very big ones which destroy 90 of life on earth (limit of primary and secondary geological era, it is called the permo Triassic crisis.

      Or middle sized ones which can destroy life in an area like North America. By instance Washington area is the rest of an astroblast which occurred in Jurassic time 200Myear ago.

      But it could be major climatic crisis or ecological modifications etc…

      So many lines can be cut for no specific reasons just due to the fact to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

      Marching Dinosaurs by instance have disappear suddenly 65 MY ago as a big asteroid fall in south Mexico. This fall has modified drastically the atmospheric conditions all around the earth, with a probable nuclear winter. (not speaking of fire, choc wave, and other little disagreements), I sais marching dinosaurs as our little birds are and branch of the dinosaurs famlily, near from Velociratpors one. And a flourishing one.
      Last edited by jlbetin; 11 May 04, 09:14.
      The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
      JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
      The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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      • #4
        Now to be more inside the life tree evolution. Some of you told that Iif evolution and genetics were true we may create dog with wings.

        The dog one, came from mammals which themselves came from mammalian reptiles which came at the end from reptile. So all we have in common with birds is the common part of the tree it means the reptile branch.

        What is common is to find look at yourself and a bird: bilateral symmetry, a skeleton, 4 members, 5 “fingers” at each members, inside a brain, a heart, a stomach an intestine, hot blood, lungs to breathe, etc…

        Main difference birds have wings, they still make eggs outside, they have no more teeth

        Lets go back on my plant, the line which provide birds come from the dinosaurs one which itself came from reptiles, the number of branching which permit to come to birds is very very important and the gene management to get those wings need a lot of organic modifications. It is why it impossible to create a dog with wings.

        But

        Again a but, some organic work exist by themselves an can be transported from one branch to an other. By instance some spiders make a silk thread more resistant as Kevlar. Genetician have seen that the genes which managed the thread are independent of any other organic creation, what they did it to install this gene scheme into a race of goats, in the milk creation area and workers have just to draw the milk and to extract the thread

        See below
        http://www.detnews.com/2002/technolo...ogy-503906.htm


        Look at Tigers and Lions, different species but near enough in the last speciation branching to permit reproduction between them. But the branching is far enough to make crossed descendant sterile.

        Look at Dogs Wolves Dingos and jackals. Those are real different species but the speciation branching is not far enough as the children of their crossing are still able to reproduce themselves. Those 4 species are still a genetic melting pot even if there are in a biological point of view, 4 different species.

        So dogs with wings it will never be, but very near species in evolution tree could be mixed without trouble.

        I hope it will open a rich discussion between us

        Der WanderPaleontologist
        Last edited by jlbetin; 11 May 04, 13:34.
        The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
        JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
        The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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        • #5
          I hope you know what a Thylacine is or was, what are they closely related to? they are a very peculiar species i hope you can answer that.
          Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

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          • #6
            some pics of thylacine, notice how far the mouth opens http://images.google.com/images?q=th...-8&sa=N&tab=wi
            Not lip service, nor obsequious homage to superiors, nor servile observance of forms and customs...the Australian army is proof that individualism is the best and not the worst foundation upon which to build up collective discipline - General Monash

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Temujin
              I hope you know what a Thylacine is or was, what are they closely related to? they are a very peculiar species i hope you can answer that.
              Ok an easy one, the marsupials family are very primitve mammals, following my plant example they are situated on the first branchings of mammals.

              They were not extingiush as they stay protected on australia, when autralia was cut from any influences from the rest of the world. But in rest of the world the marsupials have been replaced by the placentarian mammals.
              In australia the Marsuplials could evolve freely as they were at the highest level of evolution there. they took all ecological places:by instance Kangaroo as herbivorian and Tasmanian wolf as predator.

              Main difference between marsupials and placentarians. Young are nearby complete at birth and are less subject to hazardous action inside the body of their mother, Marsupials are born like a small larva need to climb from uterus to the teat of their mother, in marsupial pocket which is a long and difficult way, there they finish to grew up.

              http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/mammal/...marsupial.html

              Probably you know that but I preffer to give more.

              hope I answer you

              Jean-Luc
              Last edited by jlbetin; 11 May 04, 09:57.
              The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
              JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
              The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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              • #8
                For Aussies friends some interesting information here
                http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio303/contdrift.htm

                Der WanderDataSeeker
                The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
                JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
                The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

                Comment


                • #9
                  That's wonderful jlbetin, but, I still maintain that it is possible to believe that both are true. I am not an extremist like you and Temujin are. I know the evidence for evolution, however, I find the theory to br rather weak around the beginning of time. To quote the evolution equation; Nothing + Nobody + Fat Chance = Everything. To be honest with you Jean Luc most of your post is totally irrelivent, where evolution breaks down IMHO is at the very beginning. That the duckbill platypuss evolved from the segullbill platypuss does not answer the main question was the universe created from the big bang or was it made by God. I maintain that God created the universe and the set an evolutionary proicess in motion that is certainly a possibility.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Priest
                    That's wonderful jlbetin, but, I still maintain that it is possible to believe that both are true. I am not an extremist like you and Temujin are. I know the evidence for evolution, however, I find the theory to br rather weak around the beginning of time. To quote the evolution equation; Nothing + Nobody + Fat Chance = Everything. To be honest with you Jean Luc most of your post is totally irrelivent, where evolution breaks down IMHO is at the very beginning. That the duckbill platypuss evolved from the segullbill platypuss does not answer the main question was the universe created from the big bang or was it made by God. I maintain that God created the universe and the set an evolutionary proicess in motion that is certainly a possibility.
                    Priest,

                    As a scientific educated people, I can't say if god exist or not.
                    I can't say too that an omnipotent god doesn't made things as life exist an human beings appears. This is the approach of Stephen Hawking.

                    I just want to say that to teach bible as explanation of the creation of the universe is a nonsense. this is point of view defended by the so called "creationist".

                    I do not attack those who believe is a superior being at the origin of everything. I just say bible teach religion not the real world creation.

                    To be honnest up to my bottom, even me I ask myself about a god. I'm not so Stalinist to affirm I own the truth.

                    I just say they are facts and rules in universe and the bible story do not relate those rules and facts.

                    I hope you understand better my position

                    Der WanderIAskMySelfIf..........
                    The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
                    JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
                    The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jlbetin
                      Priest,

                      As a scientific educated people, I can't say if god exist or not.
                      I can't say too that an omnipotent god doesn't made things as life exist an human beings appears. This is the approach of Stephen Hawking.
                      I'm a scientifically educated person myself, I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that religious people (or as Temujin would put it "irrational thinkers") cannot appreciate or understand science. The fact is, is that science is neutral on the question of the existence of God. Human science is still too primative to answer the question as to whetfer God exists or not.

                      Originally posted by jlbetin
                      I just want to say that to teach bible as explanation of the creation of the universe is a nonsense. this is point of view defended by the so called "creationist".
                      Why, because you say so? Forgive me JL I had no idea that I was talking to someone who knows everything.

                      Originally posted by jlbetin
                      I do not attack those who believe is a superior being at the origin of everything. I just say bible teach religion not the real world creation.


                      Originally posted by jlbetin
                      To be honnest up to my bottom, even me I ask myself about a god. I'm not so Stalinist to affirm I own the truth.
                      You just did say that you owned "the truth" when you said that creationist ideas were "nonsense" and that the only thing that made sense were your ideas on the matter.

                      Originally posted by jlbetin
                      I just say they are facts and rules in universe and the bible story do not relate those rules and facts.
                      As you see the facts.

                      Originally posted by jlbetin
                      I hope you understand better my position
                      No I don't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Priest don't laugh it is me who is lost now

                        1st) Some great scientist are religious people, so Religion and Science are not excluding themselves

                        2nd) Do you really think that the Genesis explain the creation of world?

                        3rd ) the scientific community are agreeing on certain truths now as einstein relativity (to such an extand that GPS satelites global positioning works following the Einstein relativity calculations). As earth is a elipsoid, as sun is a ball of gas in which nuclear reaction occurs transforming hydrogen in helium and other heavy weight atoms as carbon oxygen etc.. . The laser beams mesure now the drift of continents etc....

                        Those are the truths I shared with others people of scientific community.
                        Following this Universe has 14 billions years, Earth 4.5.
                        Reading rocks you see 1st bacterias then Cells then multi cellulars cells then invertebrtes etc... in something long as 2 billions years
                        Those are truths not "THE TRUTH"

                        That bible told universe was created by god why not.

                        But that universe is 5000 years old. Stop. No . Bible told too that God took some mud and create Adam with it. No again the Genus Homo is One million years old, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is 100.000 years old.
                        More to add we were not the only clever species on earth there was an other clever species Homo Neanderthalis, who disapear 30.000 years ago.
                        So stop to push Bible a scientific explanation of world.
                        Keep bible in the religious and moral area, there is its place.

                        Those are not my idea; it is the common shared experience of thousands and thousands of scientific people. Those truths which permit all of us to have a better life, medical progress, MRI, Xrays to use GPS, to have computers and tomorow nano technologies, all that exist because we shared our knowledge and define common shared evidences. Those evidences that brush aside Bible assertions

                        Der WanderInScienceWeTrust
                        The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
                        JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
                        The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          Priest don't laugh it is me who is lost now
                          Not laughing, just angry...that's all

                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          1st) Some great scientist are religious people, so Religion and Science are not excluding themselves
                          Yes Einstien being one of them.

                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          2nd) Do you really think that the Genesis explain the creation of world?
                          Why not? Makes as much sense as the big bang.

                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          3rd ) the scientific community are agreeing on certain truths now as einstein relativity (to such an extand that GPS satelites global positioning works following the Einstein relativity calculations). As earth is a elipsoid, as sun is a ball of gas in which nuclear reaction occurs transforming hydrogen in helium and other heavy weight atoms as carbon oxygen etc.. . The laser beams mesure now the drift of continents etc....
                          Irrelavent, this still doesn't mean that both explainations could be correct.

                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          Those are the truths I shared with others people of scientific community.
                          Following this Universe has 14 billions years, Earth 4.5.
                          Reading rocks you see 1st bacterias then Cells then multi cellulars cells then invertebrtes etc... in something long as 2 billions years
                          Those are truths not "THE TRUTH"
                          And, of course, scientists are never wrong.

                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          That bible told universe was created by god why not.

                          But that universe is 5000 years old. Stop. No . Bible told too that God took some mud and create Adam with it. No again the Genus Homo is One million years old, Homo Sapiens Sapiens is 100.000 years old.
                          More to add we were not the only clever species on earth there was an other clever species Homo Neanderthalis, who disapear 30.000 years ago.
                          So stop to push Bible a scientific explanation of world.
                          Keep bible in the religious and moral area, there is its place.
                          So that scientists can push their version of "The Truth" on to everyone.

                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          Those are not my idea; it is the common shared experience of thousands and thousands of scientific people. Those truths which permit all of us to have a better life, medical progress, MRI, Xrays to use GPS, to have computers and tomorow nano technologies, all that exist because we shared our knowledge and define common shared evidences. Those evidences that brush aside Bible assertions
                          You know JL, I'm not sure why you oncluded this paragraph. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

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                          • #14
                            Priest, My last paragraph was put there because I would like to tell that if the scientific research which lead to those truths were all wrong, all the benefits which are issued of those researchs won't be there.

                            Big Bang is related to einstein work, Einstein work told that time is not running the same in all universe and Mass modifify time.

                            GPS positionning must take in account the mass of earth modifiyng the time if Einstein was false the calculation of satalites won't need to take in account his theory.
                            Continuing on this the lattest research on atoms, (still using Einstein research with the one of other people too), have permited to develop medical imagery with MRI. If those research were wrong we won't have those images which permit to cure people

                            Scientist are no right or wrong they analyse facts and follwong fact they made a theory which right or false
                            It is the facts which are true or false.
                            Earth is a ball this a fact which is true, it is made of different stones with a specific density etc... it drives after that to conclusions about gravity etc.... which are right too. Its not the scientists which are right, it is the rules that manage this world

                            Der wanderer
                            The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
                            JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
                            The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jlbetin
                              Priest, My last paragraph was put there because I would like to tell that if the scientific research which lead to those truths were all wrong, all the benefits which are issued of those researchs won't be there.
                              So what? Just because some science is right doesn't make it all right.

                              Originally posted by jlbetin
                              Big Bang is related to einstein work, Einstein work told that time is not running the same in all universe and Mass modifify time.
                              So what?

                              Originally posted by jlbetin
                              GPS positionning must take in account the mass of earth modifiyng the time if Einstein was false the calculation of satalites won't need to take in account his theory.
                              Again so what?

                              [QUOTE=jlbetin}Continuing on this the lattest research on atoms, (still using Einstein research with the one of other people too), have permited to develop medical imagery with MRI. If those research were wrong we won't have those images which permit to cure people[/QUOTE]
                              That's wonderful JL, but, it still doesn't prove that all science is right.

                              Originally posted by jlbetin
                              Scientist are no right or wrong they analyse facts and follwong fact they made a theory which right or false
                              It is the facts which are true or false.
                              That's not what you are saying you said in your last post that science disproved the bible. that is assuming that scientists know everything.

                              Originally posted by jlbetin
                              Earth is a ball this a fact which is true, it is made of different stones with a specific density etc... it drives after that to conclusions about gravity etc.... which are right too. Its not the scientists which are right, it is the rules that manage this world
                              ??????

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