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  • Germany on the international scene

    I would like to ask a question to the Germans on this board.
    The Germans shown, and still show, that they have understood the lessons of the WW2 and have made a very good job concerning the repentance. This attitude helped a lot in the construction of Europe.
    Now Germany is a very pacific country, which don't have any claim on the international scene, except participating in international peacekeeping operation like in Kosovo or in Afghanistan. It is a least the image I have of the country.
    So first I would like to know what is the international policy/claims of Germany. And don’t you think, as German, that Germany should be more “aggressive” on the international scene and should have geopolitical claims and presence in the world, like Great Britain of France ?
    In my opinion she should, that would help a lot Europe. But for the moment Germany seems to be a economical giant but a political dwarf.
    And to the non German poster : do you think it is a good idea that Germany play a more important role on the international scene ?

    LaPalice.
    Monsieur de La Palice est mort
    Mort devant Pavie.
    Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
    Il était encore en vie...

  • #2
    Well, first of all to the international parquet thing.
    As far as i know in the European union Germany has much political influence and uses it if possible, I mean, Germany is the largest country in the Union.
    Apart from important things, some German politicians are fighting for German to be accepted as a third official language in the EU councils and some even demand a permanent seat in the UN security council (something I would also like, but who will not).
    I more or less agree that intenationally Germany has not played a that important role internationally, as most things were accepted in accordance to the USA in the last decades in te West. I believe the only "accomplishment" of international German policy can be seen in the area of the fall of the Eastern-bloc, where strong west-german politicians ensured that this whole reunification and breakdown of the Soviet union -stuff became a really bad thing.

    Generally I would like to see Germany more acting internationally, but in that context the politicians should also really pursue the opinion of it's people (should have really stayed hard on the Iraq issue, and not just now accept everything as it is)and not just work for senseless stuff (see the language issue) as rising unemployment and "cost-cutting" mainly in the education sector in the country itself should also be attacked.
    Well, maybe it is time for a more leftwing government, but I believe this is utopic when I see what the "social-democrat" government is doing currently...

    Apart from that many things Germany was famous for are on decline now. Nobody really supports sports anymore, be realistic the first real fight in the Soccer world cup was against Brazil, we lost it, but fortunately it was in the final-game.


    well, guess that's enough for now...
    "A platoon of Chinese tanks viciously attacked a Soviet harvester,
    which was peacefully working a field near the Soviet-Chinese border.
    The harvester returned fire and upon destroying the enemy
    returned to its home base."

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    • #3
      Originally posted by LaPalice
      And to the non German poster : do you think it is a good idea that Germany play a more important role on the international scene ?
      I am opposed to the idea of Germany getting a permanment seat on the UN Security Council. But if she wants it, she will have to allow Israel to take one as well, God knows Israel's been oppressed for far too long. This way, America will keep Germany off, because we all know there's no way the other countries will allow Israel to gain a permanment seat as well. Besides, America has her veto power, I bet you she is going to use it should Germany wants a seat.

      Don't argue Israel isn't a significant country, she is more than equal to Germany in terms of economic, military, and social institutions.

      In all, I think it's silly to have 10 rotating members of Security Council.

      I feel that Germany is more or less a puppet of France, after all, she nearly agrees with France on everything. I don't really want Germany to play a more active international role if that means threatening America's strategic interests. However, she should follow the United Kingdoms' method, by cooperating with USA in a mutual alliance. Why do you think Americans have more respect for Great Britain even though its people were opposed against the war?

      Dan
      Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

      "Aim small, miss small."

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      • #4
        that was the most arrogant and idiotic thing I've ever seen you write Cheetah. It's also insulting. I won't even dignify your response with a rebuttal.
        "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

        – George W. Bush

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lt. Dan
          that was the most arrogant and idiotic thing I've ever seen you write Cheetah. It's also insulting. I won't even dignify your response with a rebuttal.
          Why? Am I supposed to say, "Okay, let's give Germany everything she wants and more!"

          I feel she has not deserved America's respect and a permanment seat at all. I stand by my statement.

          I'm sorry, but I don't think having nationalistic feelings is dirty at all.

          Dan
          Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

          "Aim small, miss small."

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          • #6
            Cheetah, France has never been and never will be a puppet of Germany. Think Israel vs. the Palestinians or North Korea vs. South Korea except nobody's gotten killed in the past 50 years. But their mutual history is much longer than 50 years.

            "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
            --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MonsterZero
              Cheetah, France has never been and never will be a puppet of Germany. Think Israel vs. the Palestinians except nobody's gotten killed in the past 50 years. But their mutual history is much longer than 50 years.
              No you misunderstood me, I think Germany IS a puppet of France, not the other way around. That means France is controlling Germany.

              If she wants a permanment seat, she's going to have to let Israel get one as well.

              Sorry, but this is the price Germany must pay, and I'm not giving it up.

              Dan
              Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

              "Aim small, miss small."

              Comment


              • #8
                It won't work either way. The grassroots disrespect and antagonism for the other side is very deep and very complex over there, what we're seeing today with the EU is a very recent phenomenon.

                "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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                • #9
                  Cheetah.

                  The fact that you see two countries agreeing on something, as one being being puppeteered by the other says a lot about your world view.
                  Last edited by rasmus; 02 Apr 04, 15:27.
                  ...the troops of love are pulling out... (D.A.D.)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cheetah772
                    I am opposed to the idea of Germany getting a permanment seat on the UN Security Council.
                    I don't think anyone should be a permanent member of the security council. That's part of the problem with the UN, as well as the veto power.

                    But if she wants it, she will have to allow Israel to take one as well, God knows Israel's been oppressed for far too long.
                    What does Israel have to do with Germany being a permanent member of the security council? Being oppressed dosen't qualify for permanent security council membership. If so, I guess the Palestinians would qualify too, and probably most of Africa, and pretty much the entire third world.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cheetah772
                      I feel that Germany is more or less a puppet of France, after all, she nearly agrees with France on everything. I don't really want Germany to play a more active international role if that means threatening America's strategic interests.
                      So you want Germany to be America's puppet?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Martin Schenkel
                        I don't think anyone should be a permanent member of the security council. That's part of the problem with the UN, as well as the veto power.
                        Well said.

                        Germany has to expand her international interest. That is just a fact of life today. The barriers of that once divided domestic and foriegn interest are crumbling in the wake of telecommuni-cations and travel. Now they tend to rely on each other more, making far more difficult to "stay out" and behind your borders.
                        For example: economic expansion requires foriegn seurity.

                        Originally posted by Cheetah772
                        No you misunderstood me, I think Germany IS a puppet of France, not the other way around. That means France is controlling Germany.
                        I don't think Schroeder is a puppet of Chirac. If anything, it would be the other way around. Tactically, Schroeder is smarter. Strategically, I think Germany is stronger (given her economic status). The alliance between Germany and France was not absolute. Shroeder backed away when Chirac got arrogant and began making threats. He also supported other initiatives. It is tragic Bush has taken this blunt policy which treats Schroeder in a manner the man, and his government doesn't deserve.

                        This is a hell of alot more than I can say for Chirac, who I now feel deserves the amount criticism he's experienced here in the US.
                        "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Deltapooh
                          Germany has to expand her international interest. That is just a fact of life today. The barriers of that once divided domestic and foriegn interest are crumbling in the wake of telecommuni-cations and travel. Now they tend to rely on each other more, making far more difficult to "stay out" and behind your borders.
                          The point of my post is that Germany shouldn't be allowed to acquire a permanment seat on the Security Council.

                          If we were to disband the Big Five seats, and give the rotating assignments, we would be in for a major disaster. No one wants Libya or Rwanda to have the say in Security Council should they get a longer period of "rotating" seat assigned.

                          I would rather to disband the entire United Nations as this will once again revert to nation-state systems.

                          I don't think Schroeder is a puppet of Chirac. If anything, it would be the other way around. Tactically, Schroeder is smarter. Strategically, I think Germany is stronger (given her economic status). The alliance between Germany and France was not absolute. Shroeder backed away when Chirac got arrogant and began making threats. He also supported other initiatives. It is tragic Bush has taken this blunt policy which treats Schroeder in a manner the man, and his government doesn't deserve.
                          I highly disagree with this assessment. I don't trust Shroder, much less Chirac. Both rightfully deserved harsh criticism here in America. Shroder used the opposition of war to win the election, and as an American, I'm not going to forget that easily. He should pay heavy price for pulling that stunt on America.

                          Dan
                          Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                          "Aim small, miss small."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Martin Schenkel
                            So you want Germany to be America's puppet?
                            Was the United Kingdoms a puppet of America? I think we both know the answer, it's a big no-no. But Blair saw an opportunity to build up the relationship between America and the United Kingdoms.

                            Blair may have joined the war for self-interest reasons, perhaps not fitting America's grand strategy, but he won my respect and admiration. It's saying a lot for somebody like who don't really like liberals, which Blair is.

                            Germany should realize the benefits of a mutual alliance with America outweighs the cons of disagreeing frequently with Americans.

                            Dan
                            Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                            "Aim small, miss small."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cheetah772
                              If we were to disband the Big Five seats, and give the rotating assignments, we would be in for a major disaster. No one wants Libya or Rwanda to have the say in Security Council should they get a longer period of "rotating" seat assigned.
                              How is Libya or Rwanda undermining UN policy any different from the USA or China doing the same? Part of the UN's purpose was to give other nations a say, so that we can move away from the traditional colonial/imperial systems. The five permanent members with veto power is IMO an unacceptable situation.

                              Shroder used the opposition of war to win the election, and as an American, I'm not going to forget that easily.
                              Do you think that Bush will use his pro-war stance in his election campaign? Are the two any different? I don't really think so. Both are appealing to large sections of their population. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

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