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The price of Lies -> PPE lose poll in Spain

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  • The price of Lies -> PPE lose poll in Spain

    Hi Friends from the other side of the pond,

    The Spanish conservatives lies about the terrorists, cost them the power. Instead to admit that Al Quaida could be implied, they forced the opinion to believe that the ETA was involved there.
    Hopefully spaniards are clever and saw the lies which were so helpfull for the PPE to keep power

    ETA terror it means no connection with Spain helping Bush
    Al Quaida, it implies direct connection with Iraq war.

    Worst for PPE 80% of Spanish people was again Spain participation, and this intervention along with Bush drive terror on their soil.

    Worst to come for which European members of coalition now ????
    ITALY
    POLAND
    NETHERLAND
    UNITED KINGDOM

    I hope the Bush lies about MDW will have the same impact on US citizens and drive him out of World affairs

    Der WanderUNFirst
    The Best weapon ever:a good Joke. The Best shield ever: Humour
    JLBETIN© Aka Der Wanderer TOAW Section Leader is a █ WHQ/SZO/XG/Gamesquad® product since 01/2003
    The Birth of European Army Tournament round Three is opened

  • #2
    It strikes me that, if it was Al Quaida, then they accomlished exactly what they wanted. If you oppose us, we will kill your people until you stop opposing us.

    What happens when, sometime in the future, Al Quaida decides who countries are allowed to trade with, or what color their flag can be, etc? Will anyone oppose them? Because they will kill your people until you stop opposing them.


    Just some thoughts that popped to mind. My sympathies to the Spanish people.


    Goblin
    Mega Campaign Screaming Eagles and Das Reich Design Team Member
    DAS REICH CAMPAIGN, and THE SPWaW ICON GUIDE AVAILABLE AT: The SP:WaW Depot
    In difficult ground, press on. In encircled ground, devise strategems. In death ground, fight.

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    • #3
      Hello Jean-Luc, doing a little trolling today are we? I must say that I am rather disappointed with this post, I expected better from you.

      Comment


      • #4
        So the incoming socialist government won't be seeking to investigate and prosecute the bombers on account of it being just retribution for electing Aznar in the first place? At least that will cut down on the expense of police overtime. Pity about the cost of cleaning up the blood and guts off the trains though.

        Comment


        • #5
          you would expect an attack like this would turn public oppinion around, seeng the neccesity of the war on terror [orso].

          well, chances are we will be pulling out of iraq in a couple of months, so lets send those 1300troops to afganistan, we only have 130 there.
          French Soldier: You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Arthur King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.

          Comment


          • #6
            It is difficult to say whether or not the implication of Al-Qaeda swayed voters had a dramatic impact on voters. While conservatives were expacted to maintain a slim majority, it was widely believed the election would be a referendum on Iraq. Few people supported their governments support for the war, which many did not see as part of any effort against terrorism.

            I believe Tony Blair is out as well. His efforts at internationalism in Europe and abroad has left many British people feeling neglected. The lack of support in the UK for the war in Iraq only makes matters worse.

            The impact Iraq will have on Poland and Eastern Europe in general is difficult to say at the moment. On the one hand few people supported it. On the other, some benefits have been some benefits. Poland, for example, is being taken more seriously in Europe. I recalled when it first said it was sending combat troops to Iraq as part of the Coalition, a number of European allies laughed it off, which angered some in Poland. A week later, as the US strategy for Europe developed, people becan to see it as more of a player in the shaping of region. However, in the end, I strongly question whether or not the people enjoy entertaining that role.

            As for here in the US, I can't say whether it will hurt Bush. I can see how it might help him. Most Americans already see Europe in a negative light. It's contributions to the war on terror are harder for people to see. When you put the figures up of troops involved, and compare with what was contri-buted in the Balkans, it is impossible to ignore the difference. People don't think about population and economic size. Worse still, few people can see how political support (the most important contribution from allies) is anything meaningful. (An analysis not how I see it.)

            Despite steady declines, polls indictate that close to 2/3 believe Bush would do a better job at national security than Kerry. The good news for those who want to replace Bush is polls also show national security doesn't mean as much as Bush would like. I believe Kerry has remained about 2 points behind Bush since the Democratic Primaries began. Given the fact Bush did not do much campaigning during that period, the results illustrate Kerry's flaws, which he should work on. He needs to really improve his image. Otherwise, voters will select the more extrovert and a tad bit more exciting Bush.
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello,

              It simply proves that Spain or the rest of Europe for that matter have very little backbone to start with. Clearly, the Europe will not be a reliable ally for forseeable future.

              The Europeans still believe the peace is answer to everything, and when the peace is threatened, the use of multilateralism is the answer to every threat. It proves that the Europeans are living in a sort of fantasy, trying to create a perfect social utopia when none exists other than in their minds.

              If Al-Qaeda is indeed connected to the Madrid bombings, then I must say it is definitely a rousing success in terms of operational effectiveness and impact it had on the Spanairds. Congratulations, the Europeans have just given Al-Qaeda a fine idea of how to turn this sorry mess into an even more deadly mess than before.

              I predict in the months ahead, Al-Qaeda will step up its efforts to "punish" more Coalition members, knowing perfectly well that such efforts will in fact turn the people away from siding with America. Of course, it's just my opinion, but it could very well turn out true.

              Dan
              Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

              "Aim small, miss small."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Priest
                Hello Jean-Luc, doing a little trolling today are we? I must say that I am rather disappointed with this post, I expected better from you.
                I don't think he was trolling. The elections in Spain were similar to those in 2000. One of the reasons Bush is in office today is because so many were frustrated with the cost and results of internationalism. Bush said he would not commit American troops to these peacekeeping efforts, and the military fell to the floor praising him as a God.

                [Rant]
                I can understand, and to an extent, agree with some of the frustration expressed by many people on this forum and elsewhere when it comes to alot of our European allies. At times I get the feeling they have a biased ideal of American created by their own government's foriegn policies. Their own governments pursue policies which mitigate their international importance. Other times I feel like saying, "you can have this god*amn job," and going home, leaving the EU to try and solve the world's problems since they think they know better.

                However, I then settle down, and remember this is just business, and nothing personal. I recall when the US once condemned allies for what we saw as imperalism. Take a look at the French President's March 20, 2003 Address and Eisenhower's February 20, 1956 You'll note the similarities. I'm certain there were people in both the UK and France who thought the US impeded their economic situation and used the crisis to push France and UK out of the Middle East for good. I also recall Bush calling France imperalistic when it wanted the UN to send troops into Africa in 1997.

                The reality is the word allies doesn't mean we'll always agree and follow each other blindly. It is also a reality that despite our differences, the Trans-Atlantic alliance has remained strong. Break-up to make-up, that's all we do.

                [/Rant
                "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                Comment


                • #9
                  If the Spaniards are with us then I say welcome! If, on the other hand, they become week in the knees at the first sign of real opposition, then we are probably better off without the ballast. We have no use of "allies" who have to be convinced to protect themselves. It is time for Spain -- and indeed Europe -- to decide what it is they really stand for. Holding up a sign that says peace while scores of people lay dead and dying is beyond my contempt.

                  Al Qaeda has drawn a line in the sand and anyone who opposes or does not support their agenda is a potential target. Many Euros seem to be under the mistaken belief that if they oppose Bush and the war in Iraq it somehow gives them a get out of jail free card. Wrong. Sooner or later they will learn the hard way - as America did - that Islamic fundamentalists believe exactly what they say and will act on it. If you dismiss most of their speeches as mere smoke and rhetoric you are making a potentially fatal error that may cost you dearly.

                  Listen to what Al Qaeda is trying to tell you!!! There is no need for you to try to guess what they stand for, nor any excuse for misintrepreting their actions. They speak in very clear terms. Do you HEAR them now?

                  I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see Al Qaeda attack a French target sometime in the future. There is no more love for France in the Middle East than there is for the US. They are Westerners (i.e. infidel devils). It also bears mentioning that France recently took steps to ban certain Islamic garments in an attempt to preserve "freedom." The irony of that is beyond even my ability comment on. Right now many Frenchmen lick their chops and smugly congratulate themselves on how brilliant they are. It will be interesting to see how France reacts when scores of its own citizens lay dying and bleeding on its own soil and Al Qaeda gloats over yet another pinprick against Western infidels.

                  Now doubt France will react will shock and outrage that they are not safe either, despite their opposition to the US. It's only a matter of time before it happens as Al Qaeda tolerates no innocent bystanders. People criticize President Bush for speaking in blunt terms, but long before he even took office Al Qaeda said "you are either with us or against us." Which will it be France? Which will it be Spain? Your people are bleeding and dying and, oh yes, there will be more. Many more. And Al Qaeda won't stop until you no longer have the will to resist and give in to their view of the world.

                  You can whine all day and all night and you can point fingers at President Bush and bury your head in the sand if it makes you feel better. In the end none of it will matter. Because President Bush didn't kill and mutilate 1,000+ Spanish civilians--Al Qeada did. And Al Qaeda was killing and maiming people all over the world long before President Bush was ever elected. And guess what? They're not going to stop. How many more Europeans must die before you begin to see that they HATE you too? 100? 200? 1,000? Is that enough or will it take more than that?

                  What will you do now Europe? Are you going to hide and weep and beg Ql Qaeda for mercy? If you won't even stand up to protect yourselves, then it is a dangerous liability for us to trust you as a worthy ally. Reasonable people don't need to be convinced to protect their own brothers and sisters. Grow up. Don't let your dislike for our president blind you to the fact that you have been attacked and are now at war, whether you wanted it or not.
                  Editor-in-Chief
                  GameSquad.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jlbetin
                    I hope the Bush lies about MDW will have the same impact on US citizens and drive him out of World affairs
                    Well Deltapooh I will stand by what I said, this reminds me more of a post that Marko would make. Whether Bush lie about the WMD's or did he have a reasonable assumption that Hussien might still have WMD's is debatable and it has been debated on this board ad nausium. However, when you start wishing death and destruction on innocent people, well that's when you cross the line into trollville. Now I don't really mind if Jean-Luc wants to kick a dead horse every once and a while, but, this time he crossed the line.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Priest
                      Well Deltapooh I will stand by what I said, this reminds me more of a post that Marko would make. Whether Bush lie about the WMD's or did he have a reasonable assumption that Hussien might still have WMD's is debatable and it has been debated on this board ad nausium. However, when you start wishing death and destruction on innocent people, well that's when you cross the line into trollville. Now I don't really mind if Jean-Luc wants to kick a dead horse every once and a while, but, this time he crossed the line.
                      I think you misunderstood what JL was referring to. I believe that he was merely wishing for a regime change to occur in the US, based on a reaction to the lies that we were told, and based on the perception that - in spite of what so many claim - Bush's methods with respect to the "War on Terror" have made us less safe, rather than more safe. This is what happened in Spain, in the aftermath of the bombings.

                      JL would never wish for more innocents to be killed or maimed. This I know.
                      Last edited by JAMiAM; 14 Mar 04, 23:18.
                      I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JAMiAM
                        I think you misunderstood what JL was referring to. I believe that he was merely wishing for a regime change to occur in the US, based on a reaction to the lies that we were told, and based on the perception that - in spite of what so many claim - Bush's methods with respect to the "War on Terror" have made us less safe, rather than more safe. This is what happened in Spain, in the aftermath of the bombings.

                        JL would never wish for more innocents to be killed or maimed. This I know.
                        Nope. What JL meant is that he prefers a policy of appeasement that would cost us thousands of people dying on streets and marching with peace slogan signs, practically doing nothing except with the approval of the United Nations.

                        Jean wants America to submit to the United Nations even at expense of our freedom and individualistic nature. He wants us to think it's all Bush's fault, not Al-Qaeda. He wants us to think the peace is answer to everything gone bad in this world. Ultimately, he wants to throw the responsibility onto America for everything gone wrong except when it's good, he wants to take the credit away from us.

                        Screw him. He is a troll, period.

                        I've lost respect for him. His latest post is nothing, but a trolling post. He is actively searching for ways to blame Bush rather than waking up to see Al-Qaeda could care less about the blaming game than how many people it could kill in one operation or an explosion.

                        No matter how you want to ignore this, but Al-Qaeda is the real winner here. It walked away with a big grin on its face. It knew what it was doing all along. Spain balked in the face of danger. It chickened out. It chose the ideal of peace when it doesn't exist anymore, and way long before President Bush came onto the world's stage.

                        I feel sorry for Europe, in months ahead, more people are going to die, precisely because Al-Qaeda have found a weakness, and it's going to exploit it more fully. The worst thing of it is that it's not President Bush's fault at all. It's Europe's fault, period. It could have chosen to crack down on Al-Qaeda more aggressively and sided with America.

                        Dan
                        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                        "Aim small, miss small."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jlbetin
                          : I hope the Bush lies about MDW will have the same impact on US citizens and drive him out of World affairs
                          Let's see the impact in Spain was death and destruction of innocent people and by his own words he wishes the same to happen to US citizens. No...I don't think I misunderstood him at all.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello,

                            Here is an interesting article on the significance of Madrid bombings especially when they were carried out so close to the general election.

                            A Greater Challenge?
                            By Lee Harris
                            March 12, 2004


                            As of this writing we do not yet know who planted the bombs that killed over two hundred people in Madrid yesterday. It may have been the Basque terrorists, or it may have been Al Qaeda. Or it may have been some other agent of radical Islam.

                            If the terrorists turn out to be Basque, then the problem is clearly Spain's, and not ours. But if it was Al Qaeda, or one of its allies or competitors, then we may be on the verge of a frightening new development -- the emergence of catastrophic terror as a deliberate tool for manipulating, or even subverting, the democratic process in European nations, and potentially in our own as well.

                            Catastrophic terror, unlike ordinary terror, is not intended to take a few token lives; it is deliberately designed to take so many lives at once that it induces an immediate visceral fear in the entire community that they too are under attack. The difference between ordinary and catastrophic terror is akin to the difference between reading in the paper that there has been a murderous home invasion in another city and reading about one that happened next door -- just the night before.

                            This impact was clear in the days immediately after 9/11; but with the lack of repetition of any similar event, it is natural that this purely visceral shock should diminish. It hasn't happened again, and so gradually our nerves have returned to normal, exactly as happens after we have escaped from a near traffic accident: at first we are all tense and jumpy, then slowly we calm down.

                            The terror incident in Madrid occurred only three days before the Spanish national elections -- well within the period of time when the Spanish people's nerves will still be on edge from the experience of catastrophic terror. The explosions on Thursday will still be echoing on Sunday.

                            Perhaps this was a sheer coincidence, and the terrorists had no intention of causing people to change their minds about which candidates to vote for. But if it wasn't a coincidence, then this would compel us to recognize a potentially horrendous new development, namely, the use of catastrophic terror to "persuade" the Spanish people vote against the pro-America policy of Prime Minister Aznar's party.

                            If this is the case, then the Spanish election Sunday will carry a significance that will transcend the borders of Spain, and which could make it one of the most decisive elections in the short history of modern democracy. For if the Spanish people vote against Aznar's party, then it will appear to the terrorists that they have succeeded in manipulating the domestic policy of an independent nation through an act of catastrophic terror. They will have succeeded in making a nation change its mind about who is to lead them -- and that would be a setback from which our world might never recover.

                            Factually this may not be the case: the vote may conceivably go against Aznar's party for reasons having nothing to do with today's terror. But to the terrorists, such a doubt will not exist. If Aznar is defeated, they will be convinced that it was their act that produced this result; and, God forbid, they may well be right.

                            This conclusion is the last conclusion that anyone could possibly want the terrorists to draw, because if they believe that they can alter the outcome of an election in Spain, it will inevitably tempt them to try to alter the outcome of future elections in other nations of Europe by a similar use of catastrophic terror.

                            Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that they might not also be tempted to use catastrophic terror to affect the next national election in the United States. Indeed, it is all too easy to concoct nightmare scenarios in which a series of coordinated attacks immediately before the election created a climate of such fear and anxiety that a serious question might be raised about the validity of the national election itself.

                            Imagine if such terror attacks were explicitly justified by the terrorists as a punishment for Bush's Iraq policy and as endorsements for Senator Kerry. In that case, a victory for Kerry would be tainted with the accusation that he had won through help from the terrorists, and at the cost of the lives of hundred or even thousands of American citizens.

                            On the other hand, suppose that there is a series of terror events in big cities -- the natural setting for catastrophic acts of terror -- right before the election. This would tend to make the heavily Democratic urban voters stay home on election day, while it would have far less impact on the heavily Republican rural voters near or in small towns, in which case a Bush victory would be tainted by the accusation that he, too, was elected by the terrorists.

                            If the terrorists believe that they can shape the policy of nations by using catastrophic terror to disrupt democratic elections, this would prove to be a greater challenge to our democratic heritage than any we have faced in our much embattled past. Nor is it a challenge that we can hope to rise to, unless, by some miracle, Americans stop believing that they are each other's enemy, and begin to focus on the enemy that we all have in common.
                            Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                            "Aim small, miss small."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cheetah772
                              The worst thing of it is that it's not President Bush's fault at all. It's Europe's fault, period. It could have chosen to crack down on Al-Qaeda more aggressively and sided with America.
                              This is precisely where all of you chest-thumpers and "I told you so's" are dead wrong. It is Bush's fault, because he got us sidetracked in Iraq, when he hadn't even finished the f*cking job in Afghanistan. The only reason why he's insisting on such a big push there right now, is because he desperately wants to have Bin Laden in a cage by the time of the November elections, since he's sat on his ass and hasn't done diddly squat about 9/11 for the last year and a half.

                              The reason Spain got bombed, is because we dropped the ball in Afghanistan, and talked a few countries into supporting us in a tilting at windmills in Iraq. We should have put Bin Laden in a box a year ago, and not went laying about in anthills, and swatting at hornets nests.

                              So many people tried to warn of this spreading of the conflict when Bush started trying to push for the war in Iraq. We tried to warn to take the high road, and stay focused on Bin Laden, but with all the damned bloodlust in the American people's hearts, it just wasn't going to be slaked by a walkover and bombing a bronze age culture back into the stone age...no, we just had to settle some old scores, while we had everyone good and riled up.

                              What we did in Iraq was about as stupid as going into a biker bar and starting a fight, without backup, without having the rest of the town behind us, without a plan for what do do when things turned bad, without an exit plan, and with no immediately pressing justification.
                              I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

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