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  • Why are we still there?

    It is time to take a serious look at our involvement there.

    Every day there are news reports about more deaths. Every night on the TV are photos of death and destruction. Why are we still there?

    The land is too large to secure all of it. The bad people causing this damage can roam anywhere, and we can't possibly police the whole place. Why are we still there?

    We occupy this land, which we had to take by force, but it causes us nothing but trouble. Why are we still there?

    Their government is unstable, and in the process of changing. Why are we still there?

    Refugees are fleeing by the thousands, driven from their homes. Why are we still there?

    It will cost billions to rebuild, which we can't afford. Why are we still there?

    We can't even secure the borders. Why are we still there?

    And to repeat. Every day we hear of more Americans killed in this dangerous land.

    It is clear!





























    We must abandon California.


  • #2
    I thought that California was the richiest state of America. Why do you want to abandon it ? Anyway I am ready to buy it, one symbolic dollar.
    Sea sex and sun...

    LaPalice.
    Monsieur de La Palice est mort
    Mort devant Pavie.
    Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
    Il était encore en vie...

    Comment


    • #3
      We Californians keep hoping that the rest of the states would dump us. We're damned tired of having to support all those right wing, reactionary nut jobs across the rest of the nation. We have some of our own (in Orange Co. and environs) that we are having enough trouble taking care of. Damned beggars want their freeways, parks and subsidized standard of living, but don't want to pay their fair share of taxes to support their entitlements.
      I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JAMiAM
        We Californians keep hoping that the rest of the states would dump us. We're damned tired of having to support all those right wing, reactionary nut jobs across the rest of the nation. We have some of our own (in Orange Co. and environs) that we are having enough trouble taking care of. Damned beggars want their freeways, parks and subsidized standard of living, but don't want to pay their fair share of taxes to support their entitlements.

        YAWN....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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        • #5
          Why are we still there? There are a number of reasons for that.

          1. The stability and prosperity of Iraq is in the vital interest of the United States and her allies. America, like most of the west, fears instability in the Middle East. Should the US withdraw from Iraq before a popular and trustworthy government is established, there is a good chance civil war will erupt. The violence will likely threaten the security of Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait, maybe more. More importantly (at least to the west), instability in Iraq, particularly that which would co-exist in a civil war environment, would threaten the flow oil. This in-turn threatens the energy and economic security of west.

          2. The second reason involves the ideal of American dominance in the 21st Century. As the world, particularly Europe expands their own strength, the US must find new ways to ensure its dominance. For more than 28 years, America has considered the Middle East as a way to secure our status for decades to come.

          Many strategies have been discussed. They range from imperalism to improving our standing with Arabs. The Bush Administration adopted one of the more realistic options, which involved spreading democracy throughout the region. America's greatest resource has been our ability to convince people to abandon or ammend their own political ideals to accept our own. By convincing Iraqis to accept democracy, we would likely be able to use that as a springboard for expanding our infleunce.

          The concept is not really imperalistic if we don't force the Iraqis to accept democracy. I believe the Bush Administration, who is very concerned about Islamic fundamentalism, are forcing the situation in Iraq, which is not good news for us.

          Our allies, particularly those in Europe, do see the entire effort as more imperalistic. However, I believe that reason arises out of their own concerns of what American dominance in the Middle East would mean for their own position. As far as many are concerned, we already have too much power and influence as it is.

          3. Prestige and our own image of America will also keep us in Iraq for the long haul. We do see ourselves as a great empire with almost limitless resources. Since the end of the Cold War, our power has deminished. It is hard to accept being "just" a major power when for more than fifty years we were seen as "the superpower." Bush, and many neo-conservatives appear determined not to give an inch, even if it ends up costing us more in the long run. This kind of thinking is not new. Even today, Russians have a hard time dealing with their deminished power.

          4. The final reason is more noble. Many Americans still believe they should help the Iraqi people. We Americans want nothing more than for everyone to like us. Even when we are whacking them over the head with our power stick, the US appears to be saying, "please like me, I'll give you many presents." At times, we can forget our own history, which clearly specifies that some things are priceless, even if the consequences are grave hardships.

          Helping the Iraqis don't just include giving them handouts or building schools. A quick study of Iraq will reveal a proud and stubborn people. Believe it or not, I question whether our economic aid is actually improving our position with the Iraqi people. Maybe helping Iraq doesn't have so much to do with material things as we tend to think.

          5. Greed is also a factor, though probably far lesser than the other reasons I stated. Iraq does need things, and we'd prefer they buy America. Just as importantly, Iraq is estimated to have the 2nd largest oil reservior on Earth. There's nothing wrong with trying to get over, as long as it doesn't come at the expense of the Iraqi people.

          Finally, there is the issue of proving we are doing what is right. There is a difference between being right (the appearance of) and doing what is right (carrying out the act). I believe alot of people, particularly our allies, are caught up in the glory of being right instead of accepting the unpleasant realities of doing what must be done.

          Saddam Hussein didn't respect negotiations. He didn't care about those countries who were more concerned with his. The only reason Saddam ever understood was that administered through force. Doing what was right required the US and UK to accept condemnation, and criticism. The only satisfaction we have for our efforts right now is th fact that alot more Iraqis are alive today because we chose not to do nothing. No matter the motives of the war, we did help the Iraqi people when most others were prepared to let them suffer. If in our efforts to do what is right, we loose, that is acceptable. It is more fun to be right. People support that. Dong what is right can often take years to be appreciated. Such is life.

          It is the pursuit of doing what is right that drives me to crticize President Bush, and attack his foriegn policies. I don't believe he should give a hoot about next election, special interest groups, or what the UN has to say if necessary. I simply want him to honor those who have sacrificed all by approaching our commitment in a way deserving of their contributions.
          "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Deltapooh
            ...[a rather thoughtful post]...
            Just what does this have to do with California? C'mon, DP, stay on topic man!
            I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello,

              Unlike Deltapooh, I prefer a much more simpler statement of why we went to Iraq:

              1.) Eliminate WMDs and overthrow Saddam's brutal regime, because he was not complying with the US demands of ending his personal ambitions of becoming a dominating power in Middle East.

              2.) Liberate Iraqis from Saddam's regime. Give the fledgling democracy in Iraq a chance to flourish and prosper freely.

              Greed, oil, profits, imperialism, and all other factors have nothing do with why America went into Iraq. As far I am concerned, they're non-existent.

              There you go, a simple statement. No need to use PhDs to figure out the whys.

              Dan
              Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

              "Aim small, miss small."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cheetah772
                Hello,

                Unlike Deltapooh, I prefer a much more simpler statement of why we went to Iraq:

                1.) Eliminate WMDs and overthrow Saddam's brutal regime, because he was not complying with the US demands of ending his personal ambitions of becoming a dominating power in Middle East.

                2.) Liberate Iraqis from Saddam's regime. Give the fledgling democracy in Iraq a chance to flourish and prosper freely.

                Greed, oil, profits, imperialism, and all other factors have nothing do with why America went into Iraq. As far I am concerned, they're non-existent.

                There you go, a simple statement. No need to use PhDs to figure out the whys.

                Dan
                In the words of St. Ronnie of Gran Deficitus..."there you go again..."
                I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JAMiAM
                  In the words of St. Ronnie of Gran Deficitus..."there you go again..."
                  Is it one of these Californian style of "there you go again..." then takes up some weird protesting costumes and scream anti-Bush and anti-American stuff at us?

                  At times, I think California has a better fashion show than New York, after all, the protestors sure know how to dress in the anti-isms. I had a good laugh at those idiots.

                  Dan
                  Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                  "Aim small, miss small."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cheetah772
                    Is it one of these Californian style of "there you go again..." then takes up some weird protesting costumes and scream anti-Bush and anti-American stuff at us?

                    At times, I think California has a better fashion show than New York, after all, the protestors sure know how to dress in the anti-isms. I had a good laugh at those idiots.

                    Dan
                    LoL...I guess St. Ronnie was a little before your time, youngster. He was another one of those bad Hollywood actors who ended up getting elected beyond his level of aptitude and served as a useful front man for the preneocon movement.
                    I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Someone got caught not reading the entire post!

                      Must be embarrassing, eh?!

                      What's even scarier is someone bothered to read the misplaced reply, but not the originating post!

                      I should have stayed in bed...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CPangracs
                        Someone got caught not reading the entire post!

                        Must be embarrassing, eh?!

                        What's even scarier is someone bothered to read the misplaced reply, but not the originating post!

                        I should have stayed in bed...
                        Aww...I feel for ya....

                        After all, California IS the real Iraq of America...it's got a lot of liberal insurgents just waiting to gut the real patriotic Americans...it's got a real bad economy that's need of help from, oops, conservatives in White House...it's got...oh man, the list is endless...

                        Dan
                        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                        "Aim small, miss small."

                        Comment

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