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I Really Don't Have a Problem With Gitmo

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  • I Really Don't Have a Problem With Gitmo

    Bin Laden has declared war on the United States. The president has accepted the challenge and American armed forces captured scores of Laden's camel people in combat, man to man. According to standard, internationally respected practice the Jihadists should remain in the Guantanamo POW camp until the end of hostilities. This doesn't include the people who have committed illegal acts and who should be court-martialed and if convicted, sentenced to prison or death by firing squad.

    It doesn't matter whether the end of the war is tomorrow or in 2063. Had Hitler defeated the Soviet Russia and waged war with the US until today, the German POWs at the cotton fields in S. Carolina would have stayed there until the end of their lives.

    The only concession I'd make is to let the Red Crescent or the Red Cross have full access to them. Also, I'd make arrangements for mail correspondence with families (with proper censorship of outgoing and incoming mail of course).

    That's it. That's what the Germans and the Japanese got in WW2.

    Bin Laden always has the option of suing for peace and ending the war so he can begin the POW repatriation process among other things.

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/12/18/co...tmo/index.html
    Last edited by MonsterZero; 18 Dec 03, 22:25.

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    You said Jihadist... Do you know who was captured and placed at gitmo, do you know they are jihadist or a tourist captured incidentaly, or someone who was captured by mistake, or...

    If they are alQuada members I won't cry for them loudly, but US has the full and undoubted (proved) list of alquada?
    a brain cell

    Comment


    • #3
      Were the detainees at Gitmo ever declared as POWs by the US government ?
      Does the International Red Cross have access to said detainees ?

      On a side note: How did a US base at Guantanomo Bay, Cuba come to be ? Anybody have any links ?
      Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by laszlo.nemedi
        You said Jihadist... Do you know who was captured and placed at gitmo, do you know they are jihadist or a tourist captured incidentaly, or someone who was captured by mistake, or...

        If they are alQuada members I won't cry for them loudly, but US has the full and undoubted (proved) list of alquada?
        Tourists? Those guys were not exactly captured in St. Peters Square, Rome, you know? Afghanistan is a dangerous place! What kind of foreign people would you expect to find in a country as dangerous as Afghanistan? Only bad guys: drug smugglers, Taliban from Pakistan and Al-Quaida. At least that was the case back in late 2001. Taliban's grip on the country was iron; very few people ventured there, some went in and never came back.

        Oh no, as far as the guys from the Persian Gulf region we know exactly who 95% of them are and what they were doing in Afghanistan in late 2001. Some leniency can be shown towards Pakistani Taliban because many of those people are just extremely dumb rather than dangerous and they came across the border "to defend the religion" (the mullah told them at the mosque) but not really knowing what was going on. In fact, many of those Pakistani Taliban have been released already in at least two large groups.
        Last edited by MonsterZero; 19 Dec 03, 01:27.

        "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
        --Frederick II, King of Prussia

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tigersqn
          On a side note: How did a US base at Guantanomo Bay, Cuba come to be ? Anybody have any links ?
          I always wondered about that aswell.
          I see why kyoto was unacceptable
          http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_pol_car_dio_199
          http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MonsterZero
            Tourists? Those guys were not exactly captured in St. Peters Square, Rome, you know? Afghanistan is a dangerous place! What kind of foreign people would you expect to find in a country as dangerous as Afghanistan? Only bad guys: drug smugglers, Taliban from Pakistan and Al-Quaida. At least that was the case back in late 2001. Taliban's grip on the country was iron; very few people ventured there, some went in and never came back.
            So your saying as afganistan is a dangerous place, all foreigners there have to be terrorist?

            Your problably right, but its hard to convict someone whos crime is being in the wrong country.
            But then again whos talking about convictions.
            I see why kyoto was unacceptable
            http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_pol_car_dio_199
            http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Djarnis
              So your saying as afganistan is a dangerous place, all foreigners there have to be terrorist?

              Your problably right, but its hard to convict someone whos crime is being in the wrong country.
              But then again whos talking about convictions.
              I am not talking about convictions until there is proof of criminal actions. On the other hand the Gulf War nationals at Guantanamo have to remain POWs until the end of the war on terror.

              If those people were in Afghanistan for peaceful purposes (e.g. aid work , legal business) it will be quite easy to prove it. Those who could explain themselves did.

              "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
              --Frederick II, King of Prussia

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MonsterZero
                I am not talking about convictions until there is proof of criminal actions. On the other hand the Gulf War nationals at Guantanamo have to remain POWs until the end of the war on terror.

                If those people were in Afghanistan for peaceful purposes (e.g. aid work , legal business) it will be quite easy to prove it. Those who could explain themselves did.
                The problem with their status as POW´s, is that the war isnt against a state.
                When does the war an terror end?
                Theres also some european citizens among the detainees, among them one dane.
                We are under obligation to help our citizens with legal aid when they are being held in foreign countrys.
                Its getting harder and harder for our PM to explain why he isnt getting tried in a court. How long can the US hold a danish citizen against his will simply because he was present in afghanistan during the taliban?
                I see why kyoto was unacceptable
                http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_pol_car_dio_199
                http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tigersqn
                  On a side note: How did a US base at Guantanomo Bay, Cuba come to be ? Anybody have any links ?
                  Try this:

                  http://www.nsgtmo.navy.mil/history.htm

                  Been there for a while.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I believe the prison at Guantanamo Bay represents all that America doesn't stand for. It is a statement of how we allowed fear to compromise the very ideals so many Americans have died for. It stands as Bin Laden's greatest victory because it proves our own lack of confidence in the system so many around the world idolize.

                    The United States should look beyond the images of 9/11 to recognize it's purpose. Degrading the political ideal of democracy is a critical objective of Islamic fundamentalists. Despite general disapproval for America, Muslims in the Middle East increasingly see some for of democracy as a means to achieve political stability, equality, and economic prosperity. Fundamentalists who want to establish the strict rule of Islam recognize the need to eliminate any positive views of democratic rule.

                    I am certain Bush's intent is to protect the American people from additional terrorist attacks. Yet, in his zeal to fulfill what he sees as his obligation, the President, and those around him, have compromised our ideals, which quite frankly stands above the individual person. He doesn't trust our justice system. Our leader seems to believe our ideals are not enough to challenge terrorism. So he chooses to avoid the problem instead of addressing the issue head on.

                    Nothing bars the United States from developing a fair and unique system to prosecute those accused of terrorism. We should use the foundation of our own system to develop charges, a judicial process, and punishment. The system should provide those accused with certain rights, and the presumption of innocence. Those found guilty could be sentenced appropriately or detained until such time that their status is no longer a reasonable threat to ongoing operations.

                    The United States has tried many people. Our system was combined with others to prosecute Nazi War criminals at Numerburg, who were accused of some of the most horrible crimes imaginable. Our Democratic justice system should be no challenge for individuals like Bin Laden and Al Qaeda terrorists.

                    I say we match our military might with the righteousness of our cause. We should be eager to prove that despite the horrible attacks of 9/11, and the continued threat to our nation, America has not abandoned the concept concept of justice which is critical to the success of democracy worldwide. It would show those who doubt our confidence and resolve; and reaffirm for those who believe the accuracy of their position. This is more than a war on terrorism. Our political ideal has been challenged. Let's prove why we believe it is so great.
                    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank goodness that a few judges have found some backbone and had a Problem with Gitmo. and Padilla, for that matter.

                      Let's hope that when the cases inevitably reach the Supremes, that they will find more wisdom than they did on that fateful day in 2000...
                      I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tigersqn
                        Were the detainees at Gitmo ever declared as POWs by the US government ?
                        Does the International Red Cross have access to said detainees ?

                        On a side note: How did a US base at Guantanomo Bay, Cuba come to be ? Anybody have any links ?
                        Yes, the Red Cross is allowed access to the prisoners, however, it is limited.

                        Not sure about their status, since Taliban was never officially recognized by the United States, so it's sticky as to what to do with such prisoners. Moreover, the unconventional nature of Afghanistan war must be taken into account.

                        If they are granted POW status, that means they will have little rights and must be returned to their origin of country when the war is over with or the US government deems them no longer a serious threat. However, on the other hand, if they are granted the "terrorist" status, then they will be held indefinitely and put before a military or civilian trial where they will be most likely found guilty of whatever charges may be.

                        My guess, most prisoners prefer POW status, because they can't be executed and must be returned to Afghanistan or the origin of his or her country.

                        As for your last question, I'm not sure what you mean by that. The reason we have a US base in Cuba is because of the treaty signed shortly after Spanish-American War, which Cuba was granted independence in exchange of acquiring a naval base in Caribbean waters.

                        Dan
                        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                        "Aim small, miss small."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cheetah772
                          Not sure about their status, since Taliban was never officially recognized by the United States, so it's sticky as to what to do with such prisoners. Moreover, the unconventional nature of Afghanistan war must be taken into account.

                          If they are granted POW status, that means they will have little rights and must be returned to their origin of country when the war is over with or the US government deems them no longer a serious threat. However, on the other hand, if they are granted the "terrorist" status, then they will be held indefinitely and put before a military or civilian trial where they will be most likely found guilty of whatever charges may be.


                          Dan
                          Well, it's pretty hard to argue against that.

                          I would tend to agree. The prisoners at Gitmo should be considered "terrorists"; but the US has to be extremely careful as to who they lay that label to. Every prisoner must be thoroughly investigated.
                          There could very well be some innocents among them.

                          In the end, it would be difficult to label them as POWs.
                          With prisoners from 40 some-ot countries, it would be an administrative nightmare.
                          Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tigersqn
                            Well, it's pretty hard to argue against that.

                            I would tend to agree. The prisoners at Gitmo should be considered "terrorists"; but the US has to be extremely careful as to who they lay that label to. Every prisoner must be thoroughly investigated.
                            There could very well be some innocents among them.

                            In the end, it would be difficult to label them as POWs.
                            With prisoners from 40 some-ot countries, it would be an administrative nightmare.
                            I have to amend my statement a bit.

                            If they are POWs, then they would be held indefinitely. If the war on terrorism is going on forever, then the potentially dangerous prisoners hold as POWs may never see the light of day. Moreover, they can be easily interrogated more aggressively than if they are terrorists.

                            Of course, there's downside to being either a POW or a terrorist. POWs have less rights, but can be returned, but terrorists, ironically, have more rights, because of laws and trials, but may be executed or put in prison for lifetime.

                            So, yes, it's quite a nightmare for the United States to figure out who deserves either POW or terrorist status.

                            Right now, this got me so confused....

                            Dan
                            Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                            "Aim small, miss small."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cheetah772

                              POWs have less rights, but can be returned, but terrorists, ironically, have more rights, because of laws and trials, but may be executed or put in prison for lifetime.

                              So, yes, it's quite a nightmare for the United States to figure out who deserves either POW or terrorist status.

                              Right now, this got me so confused....

                              Dan
                              Yep.

                              If the consequences of justice are greater for the terrorist; then even greater care must be taken in it's application.
                              Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                              Comment

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