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  • Terror in Mecca

    Hah! "A revolution devours her own children"-said some thinker, in the context of the French Revolution I think. You know how back then the terror promoted by the champions of the Revolution, the Jacobins, turned against the very population that raised them to power.

    The Muslim people have had their own revolution that began on 9/11 and the plan has already gone awry. Their Al-Quaida champions (whom they used to cheer lustily) have turned around like a viper caught by the tail and bit the hand that feeds them.

    Tell them that terror sucks but they have earned it because they haven't "adjusted their policies". That's pretty much what they've been telling us since 9/11.

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    Originally posted by MonsterZero
    Hah! "A revolution devours her own children"-said some thinker, in the context of the French Revolution I think. You know how back then the terror promoted by the champions of the Revolution, the Jacobins, turned against the very population that raised them to power.

    The Muslim people have had their own revolution that began on 9/11 and the plan has already gone awry. Their Al-Quaida champions (whom they used to cheer lustily) have turned around like a viper caught by the tail and bit the hand that feeds them.

    Tell them that terror sucks but they have earned it because they haven't "adjusted their policies". That's pretty much what they've been telling us since 9/11.
    That makes it frightening, because if God forbid, should Al-Qaeda bomb Mecca, then some Arabs are going to blame it on Israel.

    Somehow, I wouldn't put it past Al-Qaeda wanting to bomb Mecca if only to get Arabs energized and angry over the corrupt Saundi regime. It seems that bin Laden is hell-bent on knocking out Saundi Arabia politically first, then religiously.

    Sorry, but it's just my humble opinion.

    Dan
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

    Comment


    • #3
      Bin Laden always said that he wanted to take down the Saudi royal family.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Priest
        Bin Laden always said that he wanted to take down the Saudi royal family.
        Some Middle East expert said that if S. Arabia held something like presidential elections and Bin Laden ran in the race he'd win by landslide. He's universally admired because he's a violent terrorist and because he's a wealthy violent terrorist, just like Arnold Schwarzenegger is admired for both his strength and fortune in our culture.

        Let them taste el presidente's tough love then.

        "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
        --Frederick II, King of Prussia

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Priest
          Bin Laden always said that he wanted to take down the Saudi royal family.
          You're absolutely right. America is more of roadblock that he wants removed. I do feel bad for those Saudis killed in the attack though.

          If it is the work of Al-Qaeda, I feel it was a very bad political move. When threatened, Arab governments usually seek security in the United States.

          On the otherhand, it might work against America. Some are likely to see to the fact we appeared to know something was about to happen as alittle odd. I would not be surprised to read articles claiming America was behind the attacks. (Unlikely. We had prior knowledge about the Bali attack as well.)

          I don't believe the United States and international community can tolerate zealots taking over Saudi Arabia. So we might need to work with the government more, who will hopefully be more cooperative than in the past. Most importantly, I hope the Saudi government cuts direct and indirect funding to terrorists groups.
          "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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          • #6
            On the human level it's a tragedy, but if you get very cynical and evaluate only the political aspect of these events you realize this is good for us.

            The Jihad in the Western hemisphere appears to be in trouble and the militants have been pushed back into Saudi Arabia where they're rasing havoc for the lack of other things to do. The terror has been deflected back at the people who have created it through their political and financial support.

            "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
            --Frederick II, King of Prussia

            Comment


            • #7
              If Bin Laden can collapse the Saud family (won't take too much)... the US will probably intervene... and bam, now you ahve Iraq and Saudi Arabian situations. Am I the only one who thinks this is precisely what Bin Laden wants? US forces tied down in bloody counter-insurgency operations all over the Middle East?

              There's really only one way to defeat America right now... war weariness. The more wars Bushie starts, the better off Bin Laden is. All he needs to do is shake the US public enough to go isolationist (as opposed ot multilaterialist) and then he get on with his unification of the Arab world or whatever rubbish ideas he has.
              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MikeJ
                If Bin Laden can collapse the Saud family (won't take too much)... the US will probably intervene... and bam, now you ahve Iraq and Saudi Arabian situations. Am I the only one who thinks this is precisely what Bin Laden wants? US forces tied down in bloody counter-insurgency operations all over the Middle East?

                There's really only one way to defeat America right now... war weariness. The more wars Bushie starts, the better off Bin Laden is. All he needs to do is shake the US public enough to go isolationist (as opposed ot multilaterialist) and then he get on with his unification of the Arab world or whatever rubbish ideas he has.
                Actually, that's the last thing bin Laden wants: more Americans. bin Laden's gripe with Saundi Arabia was that it allowed Western world into the holy land, and bin Laden resented that it was the Coalition who was victorious in the Gulf War I, not Saundi Arabia. There is some evidence that bin Laden volunteered his service and fighters to kick Iraqis out of Kuwait on their own without aid of the Coalition forces. Naturally, Saundi Arabia rejected this offer and accepted the Western world's offer.

                It could actually backfire on bin Laden, it could make Saundi Arabia more determined to fight Al-Qaeda especially if its regime feels threatened by bin Laden. This would probably be one of few times that the regime won't roll over and offer bin Laden bribes.

                So, bin Laden wanted to get rid of Western world out of Middle East.

                It was like bin Laden saying to Saundi Arabia, "Either tell the US to get out or Al-Qaeda will bomb you into ground."

                If there is anything good about Saundi Arabia, it's that the old regime is more than adept in keeping itself in power for long as it can.

                The only time can tell if what bin Laden was counterproductive or not.

                Dan
                Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                "Aim small, miss small."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cheetah772
                  Actually, that's the last thing bin Laden wants: more Americans.
                  Don't be so sure 'bout that. Let's imagine: SA is overthrown, civil war breaks out and the US intervenes to stabilize the situation. Lets imagine that this move enrages other muslim countries (their holiest place in the hand of unbelivers!) and Iran and Syria invade, trying to push the US out. Now, the US military will probably succeed in destroying their armies and that gives them two more countries to occupie. With four countries to occupie and with resistance similar to Iraq, approx 200 dead GIs would return every weak to the US (not even speaking about the money it's going to cost!).
                  Now, what do you think, how long before the citizen Joe demands the boys to be taken home ? And as soon as the US withdraws they'll leave behind a vacuum that needs to be filled... and guess who is waiting for exactly this moment ??
                  "The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose."

                  Henry Alfred Kissinger

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Priest
                    Bin Laden always said that he wanted to take down the Saudi royal family.
                    Maybe a stupid question. We say that the Islamists want to destroy the Western world, us if I can say that, as if it was a religion war. But don’t you think that the first Islamists’ goal is to take the control of the Muslim world, more particularly the Arab/Sunnit part ?
                    By their attack on the West, 9/11 before all, the Islamists show to the Muslims that they are the true defenders of Islam, when all the current regimes in the Arab world exist only because they are the West’s puppets. Those attacks on the West could only be a part of the struggle between fundamentalists and moderate/secular regimes. In 95/96 Islamist bombings in Paris were a part of the struggle between the Algerian power and the GIA (the Islamists), not the desire to destroy the French, and France was only a part of the field on which they fought to keep/take the power in Algeria.
                    The attacks on the west could only be a step on the way to take the power in Islam world.

                    LaPalice.
                    Monsieur de La Palice est mort
                    Mort devant Pavie.
                    Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
                    Il était encore en vie...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cheetah772
                      Actually, that's the last thing bin Laden wants: more Americans.
                      Really? What better way to unite yourself internally than to provide an external enemy and what better enemy than the United States? Everyone hates you guys already and this just piles it on. And what better provocation to this end than having American solders in the holiest of the holy cities, Mecca in the holiest of holy Muslim countries... Saudi Arabia?

                      I trust you don't know Bin Laden personally so you can't speak so factually for him, but I'm reporting you to the department of homeland security anyways because it would be unpatriotic if I didn't and you went on to blow up a subway or something.
                      "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                      – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MikeJ
                        Really? What better way to unite yourself internally than to provide an external enemy and what better enemy than the United States? Everyone hates you guys already and this just piles it on. And what better provocation to this end than having American solders in the holiest of the holy cities, Mecca in the holiest of holy Muslim countries... Saudi Arabia?

                        I trust you don't know Bin Laden personally so you can't speak so factually for him, but I'm reporting you to the department of homeland security anyways because it would be unpatriotic if I didn't and you went on to blow up a subway or something.
                        MikeJ, maybe I mistook your post for sarcasticism, but my point was that as long the old regime in Sanundi Arabia is determined to survive at any cost, even if that means depending on the US military, then bin Laden would have made more enemies than friends.

                        The regime is paying bin Laden a lot of money in order to keep him from bombing Saundi Arabia. Now that he has done, then maybe the old regime would see no point in holding double standards against him, and let the US have all information needed to find and kill him. That would elinimate the potential enemy of the regime.

                        Dan
                        Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                        "Aim small, miss small."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Any stability operation in Saudi Arabia would be a multilateral effort, involving more than a few dozen countries, including the Middle East.
                          "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The second part was sarcasm/humour, the first part wasn't.

                            Anyways, the Saud regime is on shaky grounds as it is. They're scared shtiless of their own people and they walk a fine line between 'American pigdog collaborator' and 'leader of the holiest Muslim country in the world'.

                            If they intend to beat Al Qaeda, they have to cozy up more to the US... which sort of plays right into the hands of Al Qaeda when they discredit the Saud regime as American puppets.

                            And if you thought Israelis killing Palestinians with American weaopns was bad, wait till the Saud family starts killing Saudis with American weapons.
                            "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                            – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MikeJ
                              The second part was sarcasm/humour, the first part wasn't.

                              Anyways, the Saud regime is on shaky grounds as it is. They're scared shtiless of their own people and they walk a fine line between 'American pigdog collaborator' and 'leader of the holiest Muslim country in the world'.

                              If they intend to beat Al Qaeda, they have to cozy up more to the US... which sort of plays right into the hands of Al Qaeda when they discredit the Saud regime as American puppets.

                              And if you thought Israelis killing Palestinians with American weaopns was bad, wait till the Saud family starts killing Saudis with American weapons.
                              I'm not overly concerned about that. As I stated, it would be a multilateral effort. The Arab nations will likely participate. They have alot of control over the media, and will portray the operation more as Arabs fulfilling their obligation to fellow Muslims. The international community would also have little choice, but to commit to the stability operation. Our economies can't sustain the pressure instability in Saudi Arabia might occur.

                              Maybe this attack was more of a statement to Muslims than anything else. Bin Laden's call for Jihad have gone unanswered for the most part. He likely underestimated American resolve and tactics. We're a tad bit more elusive than the Soviet's in Afghanistan. So maybe OBL is getting frustrated.

                              The attack on Mecca could be a statement from Al-Qaeda that it is displeased with their commitment to faith. Maybe he is striking down the hypocrits who visit the holy city.

                              Unlikely, but I would not be surprised.
                              "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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