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Jessica Lynch Raped in Captivity

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  • Jessica Lynch Raped in Captivity

    No surprise there. Arabs.

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/11/06/lyn....ap/index.html

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

  • #2
    Originally posted by MonsterZero
    A purely racist and ignorant comment.

    Ask the South Vietnamese how many of their women were raped during the Vietnam war by American soldiers.

    Do that make American world champs of rapes?

    No, not anymore than the rape of Mrs. Lynch makes Arabs as a whole rapists.

    It's not because of Arabs that this rape has happened, mister Monster. It's the context. It was war, remember. The US invaded Iraq.

    Germans have raped women during war. Russians have raped women during war. Japanese have raped women during war. Americans have raped women during war. French have raped women during war. Heck, I'm quite sure even Canadians did it the last time we went to war (which is admittedly a long time ago).

    It was war. Period.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tzar
      A purely racist and ignorant comment.
      Hmm. You're right.
      Last edited by MonsterZero; 06 Nov 03, 21:44.

      "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
      --Frederick II, King of Prussia

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tzar
        A purely racist and ignorant comment.
        I think a lifetime of Polish jokes are finally making him crack.
        "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

        Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, it'll sell books, whether true or not.

          Not that Lynch needed to do anything but sneeze to get a million copies sold.
          "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

          – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, the gravity of the claim convinces me Lynch is telling the truth about this part of the incident.

            Yet, even this does little to change my opinion concerning the awards attributed to Pfc. Lynch for her efforts. Major. Rhonda Cornum was one of two women taken captive in 1991. Her Black Hawk went down during an attempt to rescue a downed F-16 pilot during a battle. She, like Lynch was injured, taken prisoner, and even sexually assaulted by one of her Iraqi guards. Yet, I don't believe Cornum was awarded the Bronze Star.

            Every war needs a hero. Lynch's experience is made for television. I don't blame Pfc. Lynch for this. I'm certain her book will seek to minimize her own efforts and highlight the courage others who died in the fight. When compared to other Bronze and Silver Star recepients, I fear Lynch's case stands out only as lesser incident. One must wonder whether or not politics and the media have undermined our system for awarding those who performed well beyond the call of duty.

            This all is not to say Lynch did not act with courage. I also believe her experience was traumatic. (As Gen. Meyers once said, anytime someone shoots at you it's a major battle.) I simply question the motives behind those awards.
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

            Comment


            • #7
              It has nothing to do with whether Lynch is lying or not - she has no recollection of any rape.

              The book (not written by Lynch, but presumably signed off by Lynch) claims that a medical report suggests she was raped anally. No idea if that's what the medical record says or if thats what the author's interpretation of it.

              I think I read somewhere that what the medical report found was tissue damage in the rectum. If that is what this is based on, I'd say there is a lot of doubt considering she broke her hip and a number of her extremities in a vehicular accident (won't speculate about scenarios involving a car accident and anal tissue damage, use your imagination). Now if they found semen or something, sure.

              Instead, this is a quote from the CNN article, which is apparently from the book:

              Jessi lost three hours. She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it,
              ...
              The records do not tell whether her captors assaulted her almost lifeless, broken body after she was lifted from the wreckage, or if they assaulted her and then broke her bones into splinters until she was almost dead
              Yeah, they aren't trying to sell books or anything with wild speculation about events which Lynch does not remember and no one else witnessed (except of course, whoever captured her... but they're probably dead by now).

              I'll wait until the jury's out, if it ever is. I've been had by the media on this whole Lynch business one too many times.

              But the whole "innocent American girl goes off to Iraq, ravaged by savage Arabs" train of thought might just do more harm than good. Just ask Maher Arar.
              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MikeJ
                It has nothing to do with whether Lynch is lying or not - she has no recollection of any rape.
                The book is being marketed as though Lynch recalls being raped.

                In confirming the reports, family spokesman Goodwin told the AP: "It's important to tell the story and let it be known, but she's not going to talk about it any more."
                The casual reader will likely conclude the rape did occur. If Lynch did suffer from amnesia, her recollection could have been manipulated.

                In any case, I believe Lynch's story was used by the White House to generate support. A consequence of political meddling could be Pfc. Lynch received a medial she did not deserve. If this is so, it damages the credibility of the award system.
                "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Deltapooh
                  The book is being marketed as though Lynch recalls being raped...
                  Though, apparently, she's not making that claim herself. Sounds like sensationalism to drive book sales.

                  It is tough being a pawn in the political propaganda game being waged by the administration, but from the looks of it, she's treading a very fine line - refuting some of the more ridiculous claims that have been made. This takes courage.

                  For the benefit of those who don't want to register...

                  Jessica Lynch Criticizes U.S. Accounts of Her Ordeal

                  By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

                  Published: November 7, 2003

                  In her first public statements since her rescue in Iraq, Jessica Lynch criticized the military for exaggerating accounts of her rescue and re-casting her ordeal as a patriotic fable.

                  Asked by the ABC News anchor Diane Sawyer if the military's portrayal of the rescue bothered her, Ms. Lynch said: "Yeah, it does. It does that they used me as a way to symbolize all this stuff. Yeah, it's wrong," according to a partial transcript of the interview to be broadcast on Tuesday.

                  After months of retreating from the news media, Ms. Lynch will be a ubiquitous presence next week. In addition to her appearance on ABC, she will be on the cover of Time magazine, and NBC will broadcast a movie based on an Iraqi's account of her ordeal. On Tuesday, the book publisher Knopf will release an account of her experience, "I Am a Soldier, Too," written with her cooperation by a former reporter for The New York Times, Rick Bragg.

                  The book and the movie are unrelated and tell different versions of Ms. Lynch's story, but the publisher has timed the book to capitalize on publicity from the television movie.

                  The book has already added another, lurid indignity to the public accounts of her capture. It reports that Ms. Lynch's military doctors found injuries consistent with sexual assault and unlikely to have resulted from the Humvee crash that caused her other wounds, suggesting that she was raped after her capture. Ms. Lynch, who was unconscious immediately after the crash, does not remember any such assault, according to people who have talked to her and read the book. Those details of the book's contents were reported yesterday in The New York Daily News.

                  In the book and in the interviews, Ms. Lynch says others' accounts of her heroism often left her feeling hurt and ashamed because of what she says was overstatement.

                  At first, a military spokesman in Iraq told journalists that American soldiers had exchanged fire with Iraqis during the rescue, without adding that resistance was minimal. Then the military released a dramatic, green-tinted, night-vision video of the mission. Soon news organizations were repeating reports, attributed to anonymous American officials, that Ms. Lynch had heroically resisted her capture, emptying her weapon at her attackers.

                  But subsequent investigations determined that Ms. Lynch was injured by the crash of her vehicle, her weapon jammed before she could fire, the Iraqi doctors treated her kindly, and the hospital was already in friendly hands when her rescuers arrived.

                  Asked how she felt about the reports of her heroism, Ms. Lynch told Ms. Sawyer, "It hurt in a way that people would make up stories that they had no truth about. Only I would have been able to know that, because the other four people on my vehicle aren't here to tell the story. So I would have been the only one able to say, yeah, I went down shooting. But I didn't."

                  And asked about reports that the military exaggerated the danger of the rescue mission, Ms. Lynch said, "Yeah, I don't think it happened quite like that," although she added that in that context anybody would have approached the hospital well-armed. She continued: "I don't know why they filmed it, or why they say the things they, you know, all I know was that I was in that hospital hurting. I needed help."

                  Lt. Col. Rivers Johnson, a spokesman for the Department of Defense, declined to comment on Ms. Lynch's views. But he said, "Essentially, the mission to rescue Jessica Lynch demonstrated America's resolve to account for all of its missing service members." He added that the rescue had been conducted under the appropriate procedures for a fluid situation like the war in Iraq. "You always plan for the worst."

                  Ms. Lynch also disputed statements by Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief, the Iraqi lawyer, that he saw her captors slap her.

                  "From the time I woke up in that hospital, no one beat me, no one slapped me, no one, nothing," Ms. Lynch told Diane Sawyer, adding, "I'm so thankful for those people, because that's why I'm alive today."

                  Jeff Coplon, who helped Mr. Rehaief write his book, "Because Each Life is Precious," said it was possible that both he and Ms. Lynch were telling the truth in their divergent accounts.

                  "One of the questions that could arise in the wake of this kind of trauma is that someone could believe they remember everything and their memory could still be incomplete," Mr. Coplon said.
                  I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JAMiAM
                    It is tough being a pawn in the political propaganda game being waged by the administration, but from the looks of it, she's treading a very fine line - refuting some of the more ridiculous claims that have been made. This takes courage.
                    That's nice to know. She's refuting the spin doctors.

                    As for the rescue, again, it appears the media doesn't respect these kinds of operations. The three principles of CQC are speed, violence of action, and surprise. The elements of success does not involve being nice to anyone. You move through the building with authority and force. That way, no one, good guy or bad, will get in your way.

                    I believe the SOF soldiers were courageous. They, like Lynch are victims of a Bush Administration who turned their victory into a mess.

                    And as for the filming,............I believe people don't understand the technology available and employed by our military. Commanders have awesome tools to ensure they are on top of things.
                    Last edited by Deltapooh; 07 Nov 03, 11:49.
                    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hello,

                      I can't help but feel that the POWs are one of the most vulernable aspects of the war. The POWs are completely at the mercy of their captors with no hopes of legal defense or anything that is similar to due process. The Geneva Convention is only effective if the signatories feel obliged to follow its tenets and basic guidelines.

                      The POWs will always be politicized no matter how objectively we look at them and their ordeals. 2,000 US airmen are still missing in Vietnam, and they've come to be lionized by many families and politicians looking for opportunities to slap down the relationship between US and Vietnam. Recently, there's some evidence that a US pilot who was downed 10 years ago was still held captive in Iraq to this day. So far, he hasn't been founded. Even so, his family is suffering through a lot of political manuevurings.

                      I believe Lynch deserves the honor as she did successfully survived her ordeal, however, should she receive a medal for it? I think Deltapooh is correct, again a surprise, that the award system may be more political than it is analyzing the events of military nature that demands beyond call of duty, courage, and honor of one's country.

                      Dan
                      Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                      "Aim small, miss small."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Don't be too quick to jump on Monster guys. I have no idea what he was thinking when he made that comment, but it's not far from the mark in some regards. Soldiers and marines are given extensive training and background on the enemy prior to departing for the Middle East. There are required classes on muslim culture, habits, etc. One of the covered topics is that Arab armies have long used anal rape as a terror tactic against enemies. It's more than common for POWs, it's the norm.

                        I don't mean that to be a racist slur in any way, it's just a statement of what really goes on. The male pilots who were captured during the first Gulf War were almost all sexually assaulted. For obvious reasons they didn't write a book about it!

                        I'm sorry I don't feel much additional sympathy for PFC Lynch's situation. Hero? That would be almost funny if weren't so bitter to someone who actually served there. A hero isn't someone who has things done to them on the battlefield and then we feel sorry about their condition. A hero is someone who faces a grave situation and is probably scarred to death, but still manages to fight and overcome. A hero is someone that other soldiers would follow in battle. Exactly what action of Lynch's was heroic? Driving in a HWMMV? Getting lost with the rest of the convoy? Getting knocked unconcious and being sexually assaulted by Arab captors?

                        Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Lynch did anything bad, however, I fail to see where this junior enlisted soldier deserves some type of special credit over and above the thousands of infantry, tankers, pilots, special operations, and other service personnel who did their duty during the war.

                        I'm rapidly losing respect for young PFC Lynch, though. She claims it was wrong for the military to overdramatize her situation and paint her as larger than life. She says she doesn't deserve all the attention, however, she then signs a million dollar book deal and does the TV interview circuit. Huh? Let's take her at her word and assume her case is overdramatized - which it obviously is - and she doesn't deserve the attention. In which case we should make a movie about 3-7 CAV, who led the assault through the Karbala gap and into Baghdad. They didn't get lost, didn't get captured, and did destroy the Republican Guard. Do you know the names of even one of them?
                        Editor-in-Chief
                        GameSquad.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Don,

                          Am I reading this correct? Are you claiming that some of Muslim captors were actually homosexuals? I thought Islam forbid homosexuality, so what's the deal on this?

                          I saw some rumors that claimed Taliban soldiers at times could be homosexual, but I dismissed them as nothing more than enemy propaganda. Is this true or what?

                          Thanks for clarifying your point...

                          Dan
                          Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                          "Aim small, miss small."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cheetah772
                            Don,

                            Am I reading this correct? Are you claiming that some of Muslim captors were actually homosexuals? I thought Islam forbid homosexuality, so what's the deal on this?

                            I saw some rumors that claimed Taliban soldiers at times could be homosexual, but I dismissed them as nothing more than enemy propaganda. Is this true or what?

                            Thanks for clarifying your point...

                            Dan
                            The act of rape or torture are usually statements about how disciplined an army is. The objective of such acts normally are meant to defame, defile, humiliate, and demoralize an opponent. Other reasons include the freedom to carry out such acts without fear of consequence. In most modern armies, rape is considered a serious offense. Soldiers can expect to held accountable. (Doesn't always work out that way.) It's also frowned upon by fellow soldiers and commanders. These are not guarantees, but do go along way to preventing warcrimes.

                            It is not surprising Iraqi soldiers would commit rape, even against males. Iraq is a moderate Islamic state. More importantly, the regime ecouraged this behavior directly and indirectly through it's own conduct. If a commander elects to tolerate his soldiers performing in this manner, they very well could, even in the most civilized of armies.

                            So I see it as just another example of how screwed up Iraq's leadership and military were. That's why they got their *sses kicked from one end of Iraq to the other. A poorly equipped yet well led Army is more likely to succeed than a well equipped, poorly led force. Saddam was an idiot. His son's were idiots. Most of the people Saddam put in charge of his military were idiots. So what the heck could we expect from their army?

                            As for racist comments. I believe the issue centered around MonsterZero's characterization of Arabs in general. Had he narrowed the scope of the people he was referring to, I doubt there would be much concern. The Iraqi Army was crap, capable of raping women, beating up on old people and children, but ran for cover when the real pros showed up ready to fight.

                            MonsterZero likely didn't mean to suggest all Arabs are rapists. However, I should allow him to clarify his own statement.
                            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              By no means is this document a comprhensive list of everything that occurred. It's just a small example. http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/02-632.pdf

                              Don't think the Iraqis treated the Kuwaities any better. Some of the stuff that was done during the occupation would curdle your blood. Inhumane treatment during the Iran-Iraq war was the norm and Iranians were just as bad with captured Iraqis.

                              Extreme violence and mutilations are common between the Afghan warlords. Torture and slow death are commonplace terror tactics and are used against each other as well as the former Soviet invaders. Taliban forces resorted to almost daily torture, public executions, and mutilation to keep the non-Taliban warloards in check during their rule.

                              Torture, mutilation, and crimes against unarmed civilians are common throughout all the Arab-Israeli conflicts. Look at what goes on daily in that part of the Middle East.

                              Many Arab states still use mutilation or toture as an accepted form of punishment for criminal behavior, or what the state deems "criminal behavior." The execution square was put off limits in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War because curious GIs wanted to see what was happening.

                              Anyone see a trend here?

                              You can accept my point of view or not. I can't claim that I'm unbiased in the matter. After all, I was recently at war with the Iraqis and there are a ton of "freedom fighters" who came into Iraqi to stir up trouble and plot terrorist bombings. I've seen how the Iraqis fight first hand and they are savages. Sorry if that isn't politically correct. I didn't create the situation in there.
                              Editor-in-Chief
                              GameSquad.com

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