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  • Fox News Obtain Iraqi Torture Videos

    Hello,

    Since I'm a night owl (the usual bout of isonima), I recently visited Fox News and found that it has obtained several torture videos, and one of them was shown on the website in a streaming format.

    I watched it and let me tell you, it's very graphic and sickening. This only makes me more hardened in my support of the Iraqi invasion. I am glad that America got rid of this sicko -- Saddam, which is certainly a lot better than what the world could possibly claim.

    Gentlemen, we can all argue over the legalities of war, but this torture video, you gotta admit, is one of the most powerful and compelling evidence that Saddam had to be let go -- by any means available. Restraining Saddam does not stop him from torturing millions of Iraqi citizens nor it will ever dampen Saddam's lifelong personal ambitions of becaming a regime power in Middle East.

    If you want to watch it, just go over to Foxnews.com and click on the torture videos link. Be warned it's very graphic.

    Dan
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

  • #2
    I'm certainly not going to watch such thing, I don't see where is the interest.

    LaPalice.
    Monsieur de La Palice est mort
    Mort devant Pavie.
    Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
    Il était encore en vie...

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Dan,
      Originally posted by Cheetah772
      Since I'm a night owl (the usual bout of isonima), I recently visited Fox News and found that it has obtained several torture videos, and one of them was shown on the website in a streaming format.
      In case of insomnia, I had rather grab a good book. Believe me, it works just fine...
      Originally posted by Cheetah772
      If you want to watch it, just go over to Foxnews.com and click on the torture videos link.
      No way, thank you

      Originally posted by Cheetah772
      Gentlemen, we can all argue over the legalities of war, but this torture video, you gotta admit, is one of the most powerful and compelling evidence that Saddam had to be let go -- by any means available. Restraining Saddam does not stop him from torturing millions of Iraqi citizens nor it will ever dampen Saddam's lifelong personal ambitions of becaming a regime power in Middle East.
      Here we go again! Even if it were true that international politics ever had something to see with the morality and good manners of each regime and/or head of state and that torture were a criterion for U.S. and nearly all western world policy-makers, the job is far from being done yet.

      I can not resist to quote the Amnesty International 2003 report as it lists the countries in which cases of torture or ill-treatment were reported during 2002 (at various degrees of course - i.e. you would not reasonably compare Switzerland to Saudi Arabia) :


      TORTURE AND ILL-TREATMENT

      AFRICA
      Angola
      Burundi
      Cameroon
      Central African Republic
      Chad
      Democratic Republic of Congo
      Equatorial Guinea
      Eritrea
      Ethiopia
      Kenya
      Liberia
      Madagascar
      Mauritania
      Mauritius
      Mozambique
      Nigeria
      Rwanda
      South Africa
      Sudan
      Togo
      Zimbabwe

      AMERICAS
      Argentina
      Bahamas
      Belize
      Bolivia
      Brazil
      Chile
      Colombia
      Dominican Republic
      Ecuador
      Guatemala
      Guyana
      Haiti
      Jamaica
      Mexico
      Paraguay
      Peru
      St Lucia
      Trinidad and Tobago
      USA
      Venezuela

      ASIA AND THE PACIFIC
      Afghanistan
      Australia
      Bangladesh
      Cambodia
      China
      Fiji
      India
      Indonesia
      Japan
      Korea (North)
      Korea (South)
      Laos
      Malaysia
      Myanmar
      Nepal
      Pakistan
      Philippines
      Papua New Guinea
      Sri Lanka
      Thailand

      EUROPE AND CENTRAL ASIA
      Albania
      Armenia
      Austria
      Azerbaijan
      Belarus
      Belgium
      Bulgaria
      Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
      France
      Georgia
      Germany
      Greece
      Hungary
      Italy
      Kazakstan
      Macedonia
      Moldova
      Portugal
      Romania
      Russian Federation
      Spain
      Switzerland
      Tajikistan
      Turkey
      Turkmenistan
      Ukraine
      Uzbekistan

      MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA
      Algeria
      Bahrain
      Egypt
      Iran
      Iraq
      Israel/Occupied Territories
      Jordan
      Kuwait
      Lebanon
      Libya
      Morocco/Western Sahara
      Palestinian Authority
      Qatar
      Saudi Arabia
      Syria
      Tunisia
      United Arab Emirates
      Yemen

      Here is the link in case you can not sleep tonight
      http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/index-eng

      So, what has to be done to address this? Forcefully remove all the torture supporting regimes? Who would dare?
      My point is : ethics and politics seldom get along very well. And in this particular case (Iraq to name it), moral justifications do very much look like another screen of smoke for an administration badly in need of justifications. Or is it not?

      Nemo

      Comment


      • #4
        nevertheless it is pretty gruesome, when u watch someone with his hand tied behinds back thrown from the 3rd floor.

        Or the guy they decapitated, with a sword!!

        It made me sick, but i guess im easily influenced by violence. I saw a bbc documentary a week ago where an iraqi civillian was accidently shot by US personel. At that time i was against the invasion.

        But, true morals hasnt been part of international politics in a long time i just wish it were.
        As for the invasion of iraq, im pretty sceptical, but when u see tapes like that u have to admit that some good has come of it.
        Last edited by Djarnis; 31 Oct 03, 07:12.
        I see why kyoto was unacceptable
        http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_pol_car_dio_199
        http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, I saw those. But not the most graphic thing I've seen. I stumbled across Chechen propoganda videos a while ago. Now those were gut-wrenching.

          Anyways, it's interesting how we've gone from bombing Iraq daily in the no-fly zones, blocking every attempt to lift sanctions which were primarily hitting the Iraqi population and bombing them into democracy... to being at one morally with the Iraqi people.

          It'd have been nice to see this concern prior to the war too, but I guess better late than never.
          "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

          – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Wolf
            My point is : ethics and politics seldom get along very well.
            Well said. If Bush sees this as justification, he might ask for video of treatment in places like Congo, Bosnia, Chechnya (I didn't sleep well for several nights after that), and Afghanistan, just to name a few. The extent of cruelity people are capable of exacting upon others can be disturbing. Once you've see just how widespread this kind of behavior is, one has to ask are we all capable of carrying out such brutal acts?

            Politically, human rights' issues were far from our leader's minds. As I've stated many times, Bush, Blair, Chirac, Putin, Scholedor (forgive spelling), etc could have cared less what the Iraqi people went through, no matter their statements.

            Yet, we can't simply right off Saddam's atrocities as a "non-factor." His well-established record of human rights violations has justified more than a decade of American foriegn policy. Had he changed his ways, Saddam might still be in power. His behavior gave the anti-war faction fits. Defending against war seemed to lend support to his atrocities.

            The politicians didn't care about human rights. The people of America did see Iraqi Freedom as a humanitarian effort. Saddam was a ruthless dictator who raped, killed, and tortured his people. If the American people genuinely placed men and women in harm's way to rescue a people they saw as oppressed, the world should be less critical, and more supportive.

            At the same rate, Americans should remember politicians don't necessarily express the views of their people. Many people were shared their concern for the Iraqi people. Even today, alot of people around the world support a humanitarian effort in that country.

            Alot of times, we forget there is a difference between the government and the people. None of the leaders of the world truely proved deserving of the nobility both side's position in the Iraq debate should be acredited with. Bush and others hijacked fear and/or our deep desire to help our fellow man to serve their own twisted purpose.

            Having said that, for Bush, I don't see this as any justification for his decisions. I know he could care less about the Iraqi people. In fact, I'd honestly say he's doing a *amn good job of proving he doesn't give a hoot. Yet, many Americans, British, Australians, etc were willing to send their loved one's into harm's way for people they knew little about. For the world, they many people took a stand against one of the most powerful nation in history not to defend a ruthless dictator, but to out of concern that we might be making a bad situation worse by using force to achieve freedom for Iraq.

            While it is not a good ideal to encourage the use of force in all humanitarian situations. I do believe the US and the world in general do have the desire to save alot more people if we drop the national pride, politics, and simply focus on making the world a better place.

            (And the son will come out. They skies will be blue. No more hunger, pain, death............. Nice dream heh.)
            "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello again,

              Sorry Deltapooh, but I am not Wolf - even if I tend on the nobody-kows-me side , I fancy taking the responsabilty for what I happen to write or say

              Nemo

              Comment


              • #8
                From CNN:

                "An analysis by the U.S. military concludes the victims on the tape appear to be members of the Fedayeen Saddam who have been accused of crimes ranging from desertion to disobeying orders."
                "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nemo
                  I can not resist to quote the Amnesty International 2003 report as it lists the countries in which cases of torture or ill-treatment were reported during 2002 (at various degrees of course - i.e. you would not reasonably compare Switzerland to Saudi Arabia) :
                  You are correct, the United States didn't invade Iraq to save all the poor, unfortunate Iraqis from torture. Hell Saudi Arabia is even more backward and our policy is to 'protect' them from any kind of criticism.
                  "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                  Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MikeJ
                    From CNN:

                    "An analysis by the U.S. military concludes the victims on the tape appear to be members of the Fedayeen Saddam who have been accused of crimes ranging from desertion to disobeying orders."
                    Huh? I rechecked the Fox News report on the torture videos, it turns out you're correct, I guess I had my words put in my mouth again...it looks like I did make a genuine mistake. However, it probably doesn't excuse what Saddam did to his own people, even the dubious loyalists aren't free from such abuses.

                    I don't know whether to be disgusted at my mistake or Fedayeen soldiers turning on each other with so little regard for humane treatments.

                    Dan
                    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                    "Aim small, miss small."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cheetah772
                      I guess I had my words put in my mouth again...it looks like I did make a genuine mistake.
                      Not really. It's still abnormally cruel treatment, even if the guys in the Fedayeen Saddam probably deserved it. I mean, they probably did stuff like that to regular civilians too.
                      "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                      – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        nobody deserves torture, not even the guys who comitted the atrocities shown on tv.

                        Normally i´m against capital punishment, but i guess i could make an exception in this case.
                        I see why kyoto was unacceptable
                        http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_pol_car_dio_199
                        http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nemo
                          Hello again,

                          Sorry Deltapooh, but I am not Wolf - even if I tend on the nobody-kows-me side , I fancy taking the responsabilty for what I happen to write or say

                          Nemo
                          Please accept my humble apology.
                          "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nemo
                            Hello Dan,

                            In case of insomnia, I had rather grab a good book. Believe me, it works just fine...

                            No way, thank you


                            Here we go again! Even if it were true that international politics ever had something to see with the morality and good manners of each regime and/or head of state and that torture were a criterion for U.S. and nearly all western world policy-makers, the job is far from being done yet.

                            I can not resist to quote the Amnesty International 2003 report as it lists the countries in which cases of torture or ill-treatment were reported during 2002 (at various degrees of course - i.e. you would not reasonably compare Switzerland to Saudi Arabia) :


                            TORTURE AND ILL-TREATMENT

                            AFRICA
                            Angola
                            Burundi
                            Cameroon
                            Central African Republic
                            Chad
                            Democratic Republic of Congo
                            Equatorial Guinea
                            Eritrea
                            Ethiopia
                            Kenya
                            Liberia
                            Madagascar
                            Mauritania
                            Mauritius
                            Mozambique
                            Nigeria
                            Rwanda
                            South Africa
                            Sudan
                            Togo
                            Zimbabwe

                            AMERICAS
                            Argentina
                            Bahamas
                            Belize
                            Bolivia
                            Brazil
                            Chile
                            Colombia
                            Dominican Republic
                            Ecuador
                            Guatemala
                            Guyana
                            Haiti
                            Jamaica
                            Mexico
                            Paraguay
                            Peru
                            St Lucia
                            Trinidad and Tobago
                            USA
                            Venezuela

                            ASIA AND THE PACIFIC
                            Afghanistan
                            Australia
                            Bangladesh
                            Cambodia
                            China
                            Fiji
                            India
                            Indonesia
                            Japan
                            Korea (North)
                            Korea (South)
                            Laos
                            Malaysia
                            Myanmar
                            Nepal
                            Pakistan
                            Philippines
                            Papua New Guinea
                            Sri Lanka
                            Thailand

                            EUROPE AND CENTRAL ASIA
                            Albania
                            Armenia
                            Austria
                            Azerbaijan
                            Belarus
                            Belgium
                            Bulgaria
                            Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
                            France
                            Georgia
                            Germany
                            Greece
                            Hungary
                            Italy
                            Kazakstan
                            Macedonia
                            Moldova
                            Portugal
                            Romania
                            Russian Federation
                            Spain
                            Switzerland
                            Tajikistan
                            Turkey
                            Turkmenistan
                            Ukraine
                            Uzbekistan

                            MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA
                            Algeria
                            Bahrain
                            Egypt
                            Iran
                            Iraq
                            Israel/Occupied Territories
                            Jordan
                            Kuwait
                            Lebanon
                            Libya
                            Morocco/Western Sahara
                            Palestinian Authority
                            Qatar
                            Saudi Arabia
                            Syria
                            Tunisia
                            United Arab Emirates
                            Yemen

                            Here is the link in case you can not sleep tonight
                            http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/index-eng

                            So, what has to be done to address this? Forcefully remove all the torture supporting regimes? Who would dare?
                            My point is : ethics and politics seldom get along very well. And in this particular case (Iraq to name it), moral justifications do very much look like another screen of smoke for an administration badly in need of justifications. Or is it not?

                            Nemo
                            I think Canada is the only country NOT on that list.


                            I guess that's why everybody loves us.
                            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tigersqn
                              I think Canada is the only country NOT on that list.


                              I guess that's why everybody loves us.
                              The inspectors lost in the forest, or were tortured to let Canada out from the list?
                              a brain cell

                              Comment

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