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  • finally, the smoking gun.

    Kuwait foils smuggling of chemicals, bio warheads from Iraq
    Associated Press
    Kuwait City, October 2

    Kuwaiti security authorities have foiled an attempt to smuggle $60 million worth of chemical weapons and biological warheads from Iraq to an unnamed European country, a Kuwaiti newspaper said on Wednesday.
    The pro-Government Al-Siyassah, quoting an unnamed security source, said the suspects had been watched by security since they arrived in Kuwait and were arrested "in due time." It did not say when or how the smugglers entered Kuwait or when they were arrested.

    The paper said the smugglers might have had accomplices inside Kuwait. It said Interior Minister Sheik Nawwaf Al Ahmed Al Sabah would hand over the smuggled weapons to an FBI agent at a news conference, but did not say when.

    Government officials could not be immediately reached for comment.

    Iraqi Interior Minister Nouri Al-Badran met on Tuesday with Sheik Nawwaf and discussed cooperation between the two countries in security matters. His visit is the first by an Iraqi interior minister to Kuwait since 1990.
    "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

  • #2
    Hello kid kool,

    Now I feel that Bush will be vindicated for his decision to go to war with Iraq based on the clear and undisputable evidence that Iraq was indeed stockpiling WMDs. This just proves that there remains a lingering and deadly threat in Iraq, and it is called WMDs. Just give the US inspectors enough time to investigate this latest foiled smuggling operation and where it could lead to new leads.

    I'm glad I was right to believe in Bush all along since the war started.

    Thanks,
    Dan
    Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

    "Aim small, miss small."

    Comment


    • #3
      Link? If the AP was carrying this it would be plastered across every newswire around.

      http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ed...nG=Search+News

      Google news only picks it up on World Net Daily (garbage) and Hindustan Times (no clue about them).

      I'll wait until I see it reported a little more consistently and then I'll reserve judgement until I actually see/hear about WMDs being produced.

      Some unnamed Kuwaiti security official on the eve of the Kay report that no WMD have been found? Yeah call me slightly skeptical.
      "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

      – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MikeJ
        Link? If the AP was carrying this it would be plastered across every newswire around.

        http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ed...nG=Search+News

        Google news only picks it up on World Net Daily (garbage) and Hindustan Times (no clue about them).

        I'll wait until I see it reported a little more consistently and then I'll reserve judgement until I actually see/hear about WMDs being produced.

        Some unnamed Kuwaiti security official on the eve of the Kay report that no WMD have been found? Yeah call me slightly skeptical.
        I agree, and i'm reserving judgement.

        for the record, i found it through

        http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...4,00050004.htm

        via drudge.

        Hindustan Times is definitely not some right wing site though.

        If it's true it couldn't have come at a better time for Bush....
        "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

        Comment


        • #5
          Kay to report that Saddam bluffed having WMD. Though IIRC Saddam and his cronies at the time said they didn't have any.
          "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

          Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chuck
            Kay to report that Saddam bluffed having WMD. Though IIRC Saddam and his cronies at the time said they didn't have any.
            Yep. It's kind of sad and funny all at the same time.

            But, people will gradually come to believe it and friendly dictators everywhere will be off the hook.
            "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

            – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Chuck
              Kay to report that Saddam bluffed having WMD. Though IIRC Saddam and his cronies at the time said they didn't have any.
              This is a possibility. Unlikely, but a possibility nonetheless.

              I believe there was good intelligence that Iraq still possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction. The problem is that information probably was used for OPERATION DESERT FOX. It would be nice if Bush just came out and said, "we really didn't care about the *amn things in the first place." Then we wouldn't need to spend so much money on these committees, and re-establish some honesty to the process.
              "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Deltapooh
                This is a possibility. Unlikely, but a possibility nonetheless.

                I believe there was good intelligence that Iraq still possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction. The problem is that information probably was used for OPERATION DESERT FOX. It would be nice if Bush just came out and said, "we really didn't care about the *amn things in the first place." Then we wouldn't need to spend so much money on these committees, and re-establish some honesty to the process.
                I still believe there remains some WMDs hidden in Iraq, however, I would like to raise a possibility.

                Isn't it possible that the information was initially picked up at the local level, however, as it went up higher levels, parts of it were omissioned or fitlered out althogether, thus rendering it useless by the time the President or senior officials had read it? This has been known to happen frequently in the previous administrations.

                There is a famous (or notorious) story of Carter being lied to by his aides over the information detailing the supposedly Soviets' (or Saundi Arabia's) dwindling oil resources when in fact they were plentiful. There has been many occasions that the CIA or any other intelligence agencies usually "politicized" their top-secret information as to make it more amicable after it made its way to the President's eyes and ears.

                The golden rule of thumb is the information is usually fresh up to 12 or 24 hours, after that, the events would have already changed as to render the recent information useless. Was it ever possible in the case of Iraq's "missing" WMDs?

                Dan
                Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                "Aim small, miss small."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cheetah772
                  I still believe there remains some WMDs hidden in Iraq, however, I would like to raise a possibility.

                  Isn't it possible that the information was initially picked up at the local level, however, as it went up higher levels, parts of it were omissioned or fitlered out althogether, thus rendering it useless by the time the President or senior officials had read it? This has been known to happen frequently in the previous administrations.

                  There is a famous (or notorious) story of Carter being lied to by his aides over the information detailing the supposedly Soviets' (or Saundi Arabia's) dwindling oil resources when in fact they were plentiful. There has been many occasions that the CIA or any other intelligence agencies usually "politicized" their top-secret information as to make it more amicable after it made its way to the President's eyes and ears.

                  The golden rule of thumb is the information is usually fresh up to 12 or 24 hours, after that, the events would have already changed as to render the recent information useless. Was it ever possible in the case of Iraq's "missing" WMDs?

                  Dan
                  I don't doubt Saddam Hussein possessed WMDs after December 1998. Iraq never provided a full count. What information Iraq did provide seemed to contradict their official position. However, it appears that he either destroyed or buried the munitions. Saddam didn't need a huge stockpile of biological or chemical weapons. By maintaining small samples, and skilled staff, Iraq would have been able to restart WMD production just as soon as we were not looking.

                  The President doesn't use raw intelligence. He receives a summary. This, combined with advice from more experienced personnel, is used to help develop policy. Intelligence is rarely concrete. What information that does exists is often disputed. The CINC can only maintain order by issuing a very clear directive. Otherwise, department heads will exercise their own authority. A classic example of the consequences of an unclear COA from the President is the attempted rescue of the Iranian hostages. Carter never developed a single course of action. The CIA, who opposed the rescue effort took steps, which undermined planning.

                  However, in this case, the Bush Administration likely focused more on the information that supported their policy. It doesn't mean, anyone lied outright. (Of course I don't think Bush cared much about WMDs. He wanted Saddam, which is fine.)

                  The second part of your question is also unlikely. The large quantity of material Saddam is suspected of having can't be moved in a few hours. Satellites would begin detecting activity days or even weeks in advance. People would be moving in material like containers, etc. Then a few days before the move, you would see a large build-up of trucks, security, etc. Of course, you wouldn't know the move is certain until the trucks are loaded and on the move.

                  Of course, Iraq was a very closed society. Even if we had eyes on the ground, it would have been impossible to maintain survelliance of Saddam's WMD stockpiles. The Iraqis would complicate monitoring by employing deception, among other techniques. Another possibility is Saddam moved the material over a very long period of time. This effort would begin with a consistent diversion operation involving trucks moving in and moving out with nothing inside. Dummy material might be used to spark interest early on. After a bit, our intelligence analysts would get use to the activity and write it off as mundane. Right around that time, the Iraqis would begin the move of the real material, using the already established framework.

                  If merely discussing criteria, I believe Bush had good reason to conclude Saddam was hiding WMDs, with the intent to use them (politically or otherwise) at a later date. Iraq failed to prove conclusively it didn't have weapons of mass destruction. We had already accepted that Iraq's word must be supported by clear evidence. If our allies had evidence to contradict Bush's claims, it failed to provide it.

                  However, again, I don't believe Bush was concerned with all this. Thus my above statement is more of a mute point.
                  "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What happend to this story?
                    "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                    Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chuck
                      What happend to this story?
                      After they smoked this gun, the neighborhood crack dealers ran out, leaving everyone with a clear head, and seeing it for the administration timing driven, misinformation drivel that it was.
                      I have no problem at all with being proved wrong. Especially when being proved wrong leaves the world a better place, than being proved right...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JAMiAM
                        After they smoked this gun, the neighborhood crack dealers ran out, leaving everyone with a clear head, and seeing it for the administration timing driven, misinformation drivel that it was.
                        Oh thanks, I wasn't sure.
                        "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                        Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds like a crock to me.

                          Mind you figure this out

                          I forgot the journalist names hes british and well respected.
                          He did what i consider one of the best docs ever on indonesia and the CIA and British backed massacres etc prior.
                          He made this new 911 war on terror doc.

                          Was on last night and left me in real shock as he confirmed what is going on with top intelligence people and pure fact.
                          They had Powell on CNN and Rice on L King Live saying i quote" Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction and cannot get them" back in 1991.
                          They change there tune after 911 funny that.
                          Maybe its in relation to the infomation below -
                          Then that fat F&^k of awhite house defense spokessperson who is always answering quesions at white house press releases ( the guy with glasses - have forgotten his worthless name) was asked recently if the US supplied any WMD components to Iraq.
                          He denied this.
                          The investigator however showed copies of the records and investigation by Congress back in the early 1990s of sales of Bio agents to Iaq where the US did infact sell these to Iraq as confirmed and investigated by congress.
                          The actual delivery systems were sold to Iraq by France and other nations as ive seen documented else where.
                          The main point was the US sold the actual Bio agents.

                          ALso the defsne spokeperson was asked how many conflicts the US had been involved in where the CIA had assisted or used US military force to overthrow democratic governments / created terror groups.
                          There are around 74 countries this has occured to.
                          He denied the US had ever done this - ever - he flatly denied this.

                          The investigator also asked if it was fair to say the US had inflicted civilian casualties on Iraq of - he said 10,000 possible but he said more in the lines of around a good reliable figure of 1000 people atleast had been killed.

                          The defense spokes sperson denied this the even the figure of 1000 deaths, woundnt answer any more questions.
                          A general who was watching the converstaion broke in to end it immediatley and told the reporter he did not like his line of questions - u heard that before the camera was shut off.

                          Other interviews followed

                          WIth the CIA - some big ex intelligence poeple were interviewed.
                          One a senior adie to Bush Snr back in 1990's said Rumsfield and others who were Bush Snrs direct advsiors etc were called the crazies by most defense and CIA staff.
                          Bush snr kept these people at arms length so when he son came into power he got surrouned in there support / directives.

                          One of these individual saying this was an ex deputy director CIA who had been director for a number of years - these guys are big ex players saying this.
                          They all said the US is unfortunatley turning into a facist state.
                          No doubt about it - they said this with reluctance and they looked upset at saying it.
                          These are senior intelligence people all ex CIA.
                          Quite disturbing.

                          Also interviewed was one of the TOP australian intelligence guys who quit his post and went public on australia backing a false war also commented no WMDs existed and that war was a facade.

                          SHowing US base positions around the world currently concentrations of US forces were situated around oil and mineral rich areas.
                          This may have to do with the Oil supposedly running low in 2010 - expected to run out by most oil analysts in 2020.

                          The Current US policy directive released showing US future strategy basically stated the US was now viewed by the rest of the world an isolationist state that clearly stated it would project its power on whomever and when ever. This is what the State Department released.
                          and said in its directive for future us policy.

                          911 families were interviewed.
                          One lady whos brother died trying to save some tetraplegics , Bush used his feats in one of his war speechs.
                          The mother said she knew then and there bush was using this as an excuse to go to war.

                          The documentry went into the camp xray abuses and un humantarian treatment of people all known to be innocent by even the afgan govt.
                          One guy is being held becase he enquired into the location of a fellow taxi driver taken into custody and subsequently released.
                          This man enquirying was beaten by the Teleban and is well know to be anti Teleban by the afgan govt.
                          Yet he is still held with no rights.

                          The people of afganastan are suffering more under the current ruling factions and the state of the place - as noted by the journalist who has gone to alot of war zones was probably the worst he has seen ever.
                          Most of the casualties have been civilian.

                          ALso top generals were interviewed, the NATO commander Bisona etc - all said the US has ignored and violated the Geneva conventions, and all other rights and is in a sense a terriorist state itself.

                          Unfortunatley i dont think much of the US after seeing this.
                          ANd americans I know wont understand why i really hate there military and admin as most of the US people wont see this as its banned in the US from what i understand.

                          They were also saying if the media had not hyped this all up there would have been no war in iraq.
                          The american media were to blame as well and combined with the way media is manipulated nowdays they were amazed any bad news got out.

                          I can see why americans new foreign policy outlook is for isolationism.

                          And as a final note at the end of the doc one of the last pro american defense people interviewed who didnt like his questioning ) and couldnt answer any questions ) ended the interview by calling the interviewer a " commie" as they left.

                          Thats pretty low and unprofessional.
                          That era has long since past.
                          Or has it.
                          Personally after seing this i hope the russians liberate us.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            From what I could find..."dated" - Oct 3 on Reuters and MSNBC related to the items as "artifacts" from Iraqi museums, and "other things" but the articles did not get specific.

                            Reading the Kay report, while actual WMD's have yet to be found, Iraq was certainly in possession of items in violation of UN resolutions and engaged in concealing those items from the UN inspection team.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Heinz57
                              Reading the Kay report, while actual WMD's have yet to be found, Iraq was certainly in possession of items in violation of UN resolutions and engaged in concealing those items from the UN inspection team.
                              I've only seen excerpts. What specifically are you referring to here?
                              "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                              – Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                              Comment

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