Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Israeli pilots rebel against strikes

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Israeli pilots rebel against strikes

    I guess you probably all heard about these 27 air force officers and personnel who are collectively refusing to execute any strikes in the Palestinian territories:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3137392.stm

    It's not the first time it happens though since already hundreds of reservists in Israel have chosen jail over performing military service in the Palestinian territories.

    Of course they are a small minority. But they probably reflect what thousands and thousands of other soldiers think, without wanting to openly disobey the orders to execute strikes and attacks against Palestinians.

    The state of Israel is slowly destroying its social fabric in this endless and totally useless policy of war against the Palestinian territories.

    Although I understand that Israelis may want to seek revenge to Palestinian attacks, it blows out my mind that they believe that by striking repeatedly into towns and villages they will subdue the Palestinians and succeed in stopping all terrorists. Can't they understand that it is completely counter-productive? And can't they understand that they are just radicalizing the mass of the Palestinians who are not terrorists?

    Of course the Palestinians terrorists ain't any wiser. Blowing up a bomb in a public market is a disgusting and utterly coward act of stupid violence. But Israel, with its structured state and government, and with its organized and powerful armed forces, bears a greater responsibility in this tragedy. They are the ones occupying Palestinian lands. It's not the Palestinians who are roaming with tanks into Israelis streets and villages. It's the Israelis. This is why I believe they bear a greater responsibility in the final analysis.

    This is also probably what these rebellious soldiers think.

  • #2
    It is time for the Jewish lobby in the US government to **** off and not interfere in the events in Palestine. Same thing applies to the Arab world.

    Once the Israelis and the Palestinians feel they are on their own I believe they will be able to hammer out an agreement because they won't have any choice.

    "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
    --Frederick II, King of Prussia

    Comment


    • #3
      Tzar,

      I think it requires a lot of goodwill on both sides in order to stop the violence. The problem is that both are so accustomed to taking out revenge on each other if a single citizen died of an enemy's bullet or a bomb sharpnel. Once either side does that, then it would have to absorb more follow-up attacks to test its resolve to stand down or refrain from attacking in relialition.

      I think the best solution would be for Israel to withdraw all of its troops and erect a concrete wall around West Bank, but with its capital still in Jerusalem, after all, it's within Israel's right to pick its own capital. This way Palestinians will get what they want: a state of their own. However, this will not happen for a simple reason, they don't want Israelis to erect a concrete wall around West Bank.

      Even if Israel withdraws, the attacks would still continue, because Palestinians are taught from childhood to hate Israelis in their hearts. They're not going to stop until Israel is annihiliated completely. The only group that can stop this senseless violence is Palestinians. They might complain that it's not fair, but they're ones who live UNDER Israeli laws and they're ones who will have to prove to the USA in order to make any real effort to get Israelis cooperate.

      I'm sorry, but I don't see any real choice other than allowing Israel to continue its current policy unless Palestinians do several things: A.) take out Yessir Arafat; B.) get rid of radical factions within PA; C.) stop terrorizing the Israelis; D.) stop decreeing Israel be destroyed by any means; E.) cooperate fully with Israelis. Palestinians have to move first, not Israelis.

      Dan
      Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

      "Aim small, miss small."

      Comment


      • #4
        This is not the first time the IAF has rebelled against the policies of their government. There were similar acts of disobience during Israel's incursion into Lebannon. Pilots would drop their bombs off the coast. They realized that Israel had gone from oppressed to oppressors, and refused to accept the level of "collateral damage" the government was.

        I believe the IDF doesn't support the misuse of force. These are military men who could think of less harmful means to kill the terrorists attacking them. It is not very practical to drop 2,000lbs bombs into a dense neighborhood in the hopes of killing a single Palestinian terrorist.

        I have mixed feelings on the issue of demanding Israel return all the occupied terrorities. King Hussein should have kept himself out of the Six Day War. Palestinians supported the aggressive foriegn policies of President Nasser, which helped ignite the 1967 conflict. Yet, Israel has stated occupation is wrong. One of it's chief conditions for faciliating a withdrawal is an end to Palestinian terrorism. I believe that was achieve earlier this year, even if temporary. Israel failed to capitalize on the situation.

        The US should encourage a withdrawal at this point. Israel should make the move first because the Palestinians have shown a willingness not to continue the violence. A partial withdrawal would hopefully rebuild confidence, creating a long term ceasefire.

        This should be coupled with a strong international effort. Should Israel refuse to withdraw, the US has little choice, but to cut aid. Yet, the international community must go further to make it clear Palestinian terrorism, no matter the reason, is wrong. I don't believe the world has gone far enough to do that.
        "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

        Comment


        • #5
          Arafat: just kill the bastard all ready. Israel is like the boy who cried wolf on this issue.
          "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

          Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chuck
            Arafat: just kill the bastard all ready. Israel is like the boy who cried wolf on this issue.
            In a closer analysis, this might be a good idea, as this will set off waves of international criticism, but nobody is going to cry over a dead terrorist. Oh, Arabs might be forced to react by having their armies on alert, but they would have to be incredibly stupid enough to cross Israel by launching an invasion of Israel.

            This might unleash more terrorist attacks, then what is new? Arafat has proven to be more than a hindrance on the real progress between Israel and Palestine. Arafat wants to keep the hatred boiling, because it's the only chance of his retaining of authority within PLO and PA as well.

            If Arafat is taken out of way, Israel wouldn't have anybody left to blame her problems on, that's why Israel is having second thoughts about this already. Israel needs to pick the best time in order to maximize her opportunities and minimize the international criticism.

            Arafat has to know his days are numbered, it doesn't matter if he's a real survivor.

            Dan
            Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

            "Aim small, miss small."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Deltapooh
              One of it's chief conditions for faciliating a withdrawal is an end to Palestinian terrorism. I believe that was achieve earlier this year, even if temporary. Israel failed to capitalize on the situation.

              The US should encourage a withdrawal at this point. Israel should make the move first because the Palestinians have shown a willingness not to continue the violence.
              Indeed, the Palestinians terrorist organizations unilaterally decided on a three-month truce earlier this year. The truce was only a month old when Israel did a targeted strike against a Hamas leader (not sure if it was Hamas but anyway) supposedly to prevent a future act of terrorism. Israel completely mismanaged that one and failed to capitalize on Palestinian willingness to move a step further towards reducing the violence.

              Washington should ask Israel to completely withdraw from the Palestinian territories and stop the West Bank wall construction for a duration of three months. At the same time, the international community should made clear to Palestinians that if they break that truce, the support for them will vanish for a long, long time.

              If there is no act of terrorism during these three months, Israel should move ahead with a new step and ask Palestinian to make one in exchange, thus building a momentum towards stabilization of the situation.

              In the end, though, both parties will have to make very difficult concessions. On one hand, Israel should accept that Jerusalem remains a neutral city, both shared by Palestinians and Israelis. Jerusalem is a holy city for 3 religions, it cannot be requisitioned only for the Jews and Israel. On the other hand, the Palestinians will have to renounce their claims on their ancestors lands currently inside Israel's borders. This will be a tough one to swallow for Palestinians people who have been living in squalid refugee camps for over 50 years now (that's 2 or 3 generations of people), but the clock can't be turned back.

              Eventually, economic integration between the 2 countries could insure a revival of the Palestinian economy and the strengthening of the Israeli one. In the long term, providing a better future for the Palestinian youth will insure that they do not continue to be attracted towards terrorism.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cheetah772
                In a closer analysis, this might be a good idea, as this will set off waves of international criticism, but nobody is going to cry over a dead terrorist.
                It is Israel that maintain Arafat's popularity through its policy of occupation and war.

                If you remember a couple of years ago, while the previous peace process was still underway, Arafat had became more and more irrelevant and was vastly criticized by the Palestinians. He was in danger of being evicted. Arafat could have vanished away, and nobody would speak much about him now.

                The policy of systematic retaliation of Israel have made him a legendary icon again and have made him more relevant for the Palestinians than ever. How ironic, isn't it?

                If Israel ever assassinate him, they will insure forever his status of national hero. Palestinians would remember for very long that their national leader was bluntly assassinated by the Israeli government because Israel was not pleased with him. I can't see how this could improve Israel's stability and peace.

                I believe this ludicrous assassination plan is a personal obsession of Ariel Sharon, who just can't stand Arafat (he tried to kill him in the seventies already). It is unacceptable though that one man's obsession become national policy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tzar
                  It is Israel that maintain Arafat's popularity through its policy of occupation and war.

                  If you remember a couple of years ago, while the previous peace process was still underway, Arafat had became more and more irrelevant and was vastly criticized by the Palestinians. He was in danger of being evicted. Arafat could have vanished away, and nobody would speak much about him now.

                  The policy of systematic retaliation of Israel have made him a legendary icon again and have made him more relevant for the Palestinians than ever. How ironic, isn't it?

                  If Israel ever assassinate him, they will insure forever his status of national hero. Palestinians would remember for very long that their national leader was bluntly assassinated by the Israeli government because Israel was not pleased with him. I can't see how this could improve Israel's stability and peace.

                  I believe this ludicrous assassination plan is a personal obsession of Ariel Sharon, who just can't stand Arafat (he tried to kill him in the seventies already). It is unacceptable though that one man's obsession become national policy.
                  Tzar,

                  Let's say for a moment that you're right on all counts, Arafat would still remain a real problem. Even with a temporary truce, Abbas found it increasingly difficult to handle the matters without Arafat taking notes on everything he has done so far. Arafat is a power-hungry man, and he isn't about to let go of any power he's retaining for so long time, more than 30 years.

                  Even if Arafat is expelled or isolated, his hand can be felt everywhere, and there's not a lot of ways to reduce his influence without assassinating him. There are nobody qualified enough to replace Arafat for now. Abbas is out of picture, and anybody wishing to take his place has already thought twice.

                  Whatever you like it or not, one of concessions Palestinians would have to include the end of Arafat Era (for the lack of a better phrase). Arafat has to be let go in order to let in new blood or face, in a manner of speaking, Palestinians then can get on healing process with Israel. Equally, Israel is probably best off if Ariel Sharon is let go as well. Both men are personal enemies of each other, and somewhere down the road, one of them will be the only man standing alive.

                  Dan
                  Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                  "Aim small, miss small."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cheetah772
                    Tzar,

                    Let's say for a moment that you're right on all counts, Arafat would still remain a real problem. Even with a temporary truce, Abbas found it increasingly difficult to handle the matters without Arafat taking notes on everything he has done so far. Arafat is a power-hungry man, and he isn't about to let go of any power he's retaining for so long time, more than 30 years.
                    I fully agree with you on this. He hangs on for dear life onto power. That's what he was trying to do a couple of years ago when his popularity was sinking. And I agree with you also that he is the one responsible for the instability of the Palestinian authority and the departure of Abbas.

                    However, he will only maintain power and authority as long as there are other Palestinian leaders ready to support him. If the others slowly turn their backs on him, Arafat will become isolated and won't have the choice but to step down. Because of the current Israeli policy towards Palestinians, the other Palestinian leaders stick close to Arafat and that's why Abbas never had a fighting chance against him.

                    Rather than being assassinated or expelled, he needs to be politically isolated and made irrelevant. Then Palestine could move ahead without him.
                    Last edited by Tzar; 25 Sep 03, 00:21.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tzar
                      I fully agree with you on this. He hangs on for dear life onto power. That's what he was trying to do a couple of years ago when his popularity was sinking. And I agree with you also that he is the one responsible for the instability of the Palestinian authority and the departure of Abbas.

                      However, he will only maintain power and authority as long as there are other Palestinian leaders ready to support him. If the others slowly turn their backs on him, Arafat will become isolated and won't have the choice but to step down. Because of the current Israeli policy towards Palestinians, the other Palestinian leaders stick close to Arafat and that's why Abbas never had a fighting chance against him.

                      Rather than being assassinated or expelled, he needs to be politically isolated and made irrelevant. Then Palestine could move ahead without him.
                      Tzar,

                      That's just exactly the Israelis are facing in a serioud dilemmia, if they want to politically isolate Arafat, that means there must be another qualified Palestinian leader to take up his position. Obviously, there aren't anybody except Abbas or a few other guys whose policies aren't enough moderate for Israelis' taste, but marginally better than Arafat.

                      Israel cannot isolate Arafat without turning to another leader, otherwise such isolation would only result in failure. Arafat is doing very hard to prevent this from happening. He is endlessly campaigning to everybody who is willing to listen to him. His campaign is not to help the Palestinians, but to insure his longevity in controlling the Palestinian politics.

                      The only sensible course would be to remove media attention away from Arafat, however, I bet you he will be determined to keep media by his side by any means. The people can't go out on street without hearing Arafat's name being uttered everywhere. Perhaps the best course would be to launch a counter-public relations move, taking his popularity and fame out of picture and insert in a more reasonable voice, something that would identify with the Palestinians AND Israelis as well.

                      Dan
                      Major James Holden, Georgia Badgers Militia of Rainbow Regiment, American Civil War

                      "Aim small, miss small."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The conflict won't end without third party intervention. At the root of this whole conflict is water and land, not religion. As such, there is no solution without external pressure, barring Israel commiting high-intensity ethnic cleansing and/or genocide. Needless to say that's no solution.

                        Observers need to head in as a pre-requisite for a possible third-party intervention and the US needs to start cutting off aid in increments everyday that Israel refuses to allow them in.
                        "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the governments purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

                        Associate Justice Louis D. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tzar
                          Rather than being assassinated or expelled, he needs to be politically isolated and made irrelevant. Then Palestine could move ahead without him.
                          No, just kill him. This isolation nonsense was already tried.
                          "There is no great genius without some touch of madness."

                          Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It is tragic the situation in the middle east. When the Palestinians get their state the attacks on Israel will escalate to the intolerable. Israel will declare war and occupy the state. They will be back to square 1. What's the point? There's no hope for them. Hoping is great but let's be real. It's a lose-lose situation. The best that can be hoped for is to avoid the spriral into genocide. (Something that could probably not be hoped for if the situation were reversed.)
                            Last edited by Tiberius; 25 Sep 03, 22:06.
                            ...a man that can stand up for a principle and sit down on his own stool.
                            -the Firesign Theatre

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X