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  • Franks a war crminal ?

    U.S. Commander Franks Faces Belgium 'Genocide' Case
    Expatica.com

    Friday 18 April 2003

    BRUSSELS -- US Allied Forces Commander, General Tommy Franks, and a second, unnamed party, could face trial in Belgium for war crimes under the country's amended genocide law after four Belgian doctors lodged a complaint in Brussels.

    The four men, two of whom are still in Baghdad, work for the Belgian association Medicine for the Third World and were witnesses to the Allied invasion of the country.

    Several events have already been cited by the doctors' lawyer, Jan Fermon, including an ambulance under fire from US troops, the bombing of a market, an attack on a civilian bus, random executions and inaction in the face of hospital pillaging.

    This will be the first time Belgium's law of universal competence will be tested since its politico-diplomatic cleanup last month.

    The so-called genocide law had given courts in Belgium universal jurisdiction to try cases of genocide, war crimes and human rights violations.

    Several clauses were amended so as to avoid the law being used for political complaints in the current climate. It is feared by opponents to the changes however that the law is now left bereft of its previous clout.

    The doctors' case is thought to be within the remit of the new law because it is filed on behalf of Iraqi doctors by their Belgian colleagues.

    However, the complaint will still have to be vetted by the Belgian government and the country's highest court, the Court of Cassation, before it can go ahead.

    US Secretary of State Colin Powell labeled the Belgian legislation a "serious problem" after joining Dick Cheney and George Bush Senior on a list of suspects in a lawsuit pertaining to alleged crimes committed during the last Gulf War.

    General Franks is currently holding residence in one of Saddam Hussein's former palaces in the Iraqi capital - a symbolic gesture heralding the close of the Iraqi conflict

  • #2
    Re: Franks a war crminal ?

    Originally posted by Marko
    U.S. Commander Franks Faces Belgium 'Genocide' Case
    Expatica.com

    Friday 18 April 2003

    BRUSSELS -- US Allied Forces Commander, General Tommy Franks, and a second, unnamed party, could face trial in Belgium for war crimes under the country's amended genocide law after four Belgian doctors lodged a complaint in Brussels.

    The four men, two of whom are still in Baghdad, work for the Belgian association Medicine for the Third World and were witnesses to the Allied invasion of the country.

    Several events have already been cited by the doctors' lawyer, Jan Fermon, including an ambulance under fire from US troops, the bombing of a market, an attack on a civilian bus, random executions and inaction in the face of hospital pillaging.

    This will be the first time Belgium's law of universal competence will be tested since its politico-diplomatic cleanup last month.

    The so-called genocide law had given courts in Belgium universal jurisdiction to try cases of genocide, war crimes and human rights violations.

    Several clauses were amended so as to avoid the law being used for political complaints in the current climate. It is feared by opponents to the changes however that the law is now left bereft of its previous clout.

    The doctors' case is thought to be within the remit of the new law because it is filed on behalf of Iraqi doctors by their Belgian colleagues.

    However, the complaint will still have to be vetted by the Belgian government and the country's highest court, the Court of Cassation, before it can go ahead.

    US Secretary of State Colin Powell labeled the Belgian legislation a "serious problem" after joining Dick Cheney and George Bush Senior on a list of suspects in a lawsuit pertaining to alleged crimes committed during the last Gulf War.

    General Franks is currently holding residence in one of Saddam Hussein's former palaces in the Iraqi capital - a symbolic gesture heralding the close of the Iraqi conflict

    Well the U.S. passed legislation a while back saying that we would take military action to rescue any U.S. citizens from the international kangaroo court. Just more proof that we need to get out of the united nations as the inmates are running the asylum
    "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

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    • #3
      Re: Re: Franks a war crminal ?

      Originally posted by kid kool



      Well the U.S. passed legislation a while back saying that we would take military action to rescue any U.S. citizens from the international kangaroo court. Just more proof that we need to get out of the united nations as the inmates are running the asylum
      So can you explain to me why the US has the right to put anyone on trial for war crimes ? Shooting civilians is a war crime. I personally do not belelive that Franks should be put on trial, possibly Rumsfeld. But for the now the whole concept of Americanism makes me sick, if the US were to be a world leader then they should act accordingly and put US troops on trial for shooting unarmed civilians. The usual old 'one rule for them and another for us' comes back into the spotlight.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re: Re: Franks a war crminal ?

        Originally posted by Marko


        So can you explain to me why the US has the right to put anyone on trial for war crimes ? Shooting civilians is a war crime. I personally do not belelive that Franks should be put on trial, possibly Rumsfeld. But for the now the whole concept of Americanism makes me sick, if the US were to be a world leader then they should act accordingly and put US troops on trial for shooting unarmed civilians. The usual old 'one rule for them and another for us' comes back into the spotlight.
        Marko, i don't believe the U.S. or any international institutions should have that right. So we might find ourselves on the same side here. I didn't support the Milosovic tribunal. I think any Iraqis who need to stand trial should do so in Iraq. If Americans were truly committing "war crimes", we would be prosecuting them here in America.
        "Speaking here in my capacity as a polished, sophisticated European as well, it seems to me the laugh here is on the polished, sophisticated Europeans. They think Americans are fat, vulgar, greedy, stupid, ambitious and ignorant and so on. And they've taken as their own Michael Moore, as their representative American, someone who actually embodies all of those qualities." - Christopher Hitchens

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Re: Re: Re: Franks a war crminal ?

          Originally posted by kid kool


          Marko, i don't believe the U.S. or any international institutions should have that right. So we might find ourselves on the same side here. I didn't support the Milosovic tribunal. I think any Iraqis who need to stand trial should do so in Iraq. If Americans were truly committing "war crimes", we would be prosecuting them here in America.
          Hoorah...we agree. I agree the Iraqi's need to be tried by the Iraqi's. And trials do not neccessarily mean a conviction, I do beleive the US troops may have a legitamate reason for shooting at civilians with no guns, but it should be heard in a US civil court.

          Comment


          • #6
            I dont agree, you fellas aint woken up yet
            We need a world governing body, sooner the better, at the moment its sh!t, hopefully its just a transition stage...
            There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary, and those that dont...

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re: Franks a war crminal ?

              Originally posted by kid kool
              Just more proof that we need to get out of the united nations as the inmates are running the asylum
              This court has nothing to do with the UN, it is an internal Belgian law that is being used to possibly prosecute against human rights abuses comitted in other countries. It is currently heavily debated in Belgium, with many arguing the law should be amended, as far as I know.

              The court handling Milosevic and supported by the UN is in the Hague, by the way. In the Netherlands, if that rings a bell...

              Comment


              • #8
                So because some doctor says that the American troops are bloodthirsty, civilian-killing barbarians, it all of the sudden becomes true?

                I'm so sick of people that think the killing of innocent people can be avoided in a war. Put yourself in that soldiers place and see how easy it is to determine if that bus full of Iraqis is a threat or not, whether you should shoot and defend yourself or simply wait to see if you will be shot at first.
                Take away Pearl Harbor and Marko would be writing in German Today.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Look Marko, looking at it from the principles of pluralism and free speech I don't have a problem with the anti-American, provocative stuff you post.

                  Nevertheless, I think you are not happy with our company and your inflamatory posts are an expression of it.

                  This is not my website and I have no right to tell you to go someplace else...I'm merely asking: what do you want from us? What kind of reaction do you expect?

                  To give you an example, I have plenty of anti-Islamist ideas to post yet I don't go to Islam.org or Kavkazcenter.com message boards because it's pointless. Yeah, plenty of Muslim people over there (including quite a few extremists) and I could succeed in hurting their feelings in some cases, but I won't go trolling around just to exercise my freedom of speech or vent my anger.

                  Are we really the right kind of audience for you posts, Marko? Even if I had a problem with the UK and the crimes the Kingdom has committed against the population of the occupied Irish cities, I wouldn't go posting inflamatory stuff at a message board dominated by Englishmen...It's a question of maturity and basic respect.

                  My respectful suggestion to you is that if you want to avoid being branded a troll, you should begin posting a variety of opinions, not just straight anti-American hogwash that everybody with access to the Web is familiar with long before you show up at the board.
                  Last edited by MonsterZero; 29 Apr 03, 18:00.

                  "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                  --Frederick II, King of Prussia

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MonsterZero
                    Look Marko, looking at it from the principles of pluralism and free speech I don't have a problem with the anti-American, provocative stuff you post.

                    Nevertheless, I think you are not happy with our company and your inflamatory posts are an expression of it.

                    This is not my website and I have no right to tell you to go someplace else...I'm merely asking: what do you want from us? What kind of reaction do you expect?

                    To give you an example, I have plenty of anti-Islamist ideas to post yet I don't go to Islam.org or Kavkazcenter.com message boards because it's pointless. Yeah, plenty of Muslim people over there (including quite a few extremists) and I could succeed in hurting their feelings in some cases, but I won't go trolling around just to exercise my freedom of speech or vent my anger.

                    Are we really the right kind of audience for you posts, Marko? Even if I had a problem with the UK and the crimes the Kingdom has committed against the population of the occupied Irish cities, I wouldn't go posting inflamatory stuff at a message board dominated by Englishmen...It's a question of maturity and basic respect.

                    My respectful suggestion to you is that if you want to avoid being branded a troll, you should begin posting a variety of opinions, not just straight anti-American hogwash that everybody with access to the Web is familiar with long before you show up at the board.
                    Troll eh ? Like anyone else who posts anti-war comments, or comments regarding justice ? You obviously are getting too upset by my posts and it is you who should look for another forum, or alternatively you can re-name the forum the warfare HQ US forum. And subsequently banish all non-US anti-war members, would that make you happy. I play wargames like you and I am an ex-soldier so I think that more than qualifies me to post here. The forum is about debates and debating is what goes on here. If you beleive me to be anti-american then that is your perogative as mis-guided as it may be. I definately am anti-US foriegn policy and nothing more. In a democracy people will have differeing opinions to yours, if you do not like them respond in kind - not by being pathetic and suggesting I leave the forum. Please read your last post and realise how weak and uninspired it is and then realise that I have an opinion and I am entitled to post that opinion in a free-forum that is not here for the sole purpose of pro-war US members. So please show some maturity and respect.
                    Last edited by Marko; 30 Apr 03, 06:34.

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                    • #11
                      Very well said Monsterzero.
                      Take away Pearl Harbor and Marko would be writing in German Today.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MonsterZero

                        Are we really the right kind of audience for you posts, Marko? Even if I had a problem with the UK and the crimes the Kingdom has committed against the population of the occupied Irish cities,
                        That's 'Northern Irish cities'. Irish cities are locataed in Ireland, the British troops are in Northern Ireland. Where there is currently a ceasefire and no anti-UK protests, and definately no shootings as unarmed civilans, well not this decade at least. British troops are capable of withstanding a couple of rocks being thrown at them without shooting at unarmed people.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by arkai88
                          Very well said Monsterzero.
                          Well said Arkai88. Excellent point.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Now, Now Gentlemen. Please Stick to the topic. Thanks.
                            Come on, you apes! You wanta live
                            forever?
                            - Unknown platoon sergeant, 1918

                            Rooster

                            Warfare HQ Staff
                            CM Tournament Cooridnator

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Witness
                              OK, here's something "on-topic".

                              Belgium is not an entity in the world scene, nor will it EVER be. This is a lame tactic by a lame country with more than a casual link to another lame country (France) who is impotent and just wants to get into the limelight.

                              The US, by kicking ass and taking names yet again, has proven that it is the mightiest country in the world today. Acheiving it without a dictator, or even a madman at the helm, which could incur the wrath of the world, really bites at some people.

                              This whole affair is not worth the airwaves used to cover it. If anything, it just solidifies Belgium's place in history as a peon country, and gives the US even more impetus to move SHAPE somewhere else. That manuever right there may make Brussels a ghost town.
                              So because America is bigger than Belgium is makes Belgium insignificant ? If that is the case, sit down and be quiet and next time ask the Chinese or Indians if you can speak. Or are they insignificant because they are poor ?

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