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  • Idiotic Planning

    Some questions and points regarding the latest conflict in the Gulf.

    Several people from this forum stated how there were not enough troops involved with the ground invasion. This was highlighted by the inadequacy at quelling the initial looting and mayhem in Basra and Baghdad. Did the coalition (or partnership) not invisage such a power vacuum ? And if not, why not ?

    Why did I see images of US troops initially securing the Ministry of Information (a bomb wrecked deserted building) and the Ministry of Oil (similar) and not initially securing the hospitials instead ? That is just ludricous.

    Why have the coalition partnership not had ready tonnes of medical supplies that can be flown into Iraq ? By helicopter and with combat medics and teams to assist in first aid emergency treatment for Iraqi civilians.

    I have just watched images of a child dying in his fathers arms. I am a father and the sight sickened me to my stomach. The boy will die before the night is through, he needs a 500 operation that could be done in 30 minutes. But there is simply no supplies to enable this operation. And on the other station the US and UK fly in more ammunition and equipment, absoulutely sickening. and no 'that's war' replies please. The invaders have the mandate to help the Iraqis and to provide medical care for them, but the coalition partnership just can't cope - they were totally unprepared for their own victims.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Marko

    Several people from this forum stated how there were not enough troops involved with the ground invasion. This was highlighted by the inadequacy at quelling the initial looting and mayhem in Basra and Baghdad. Did the coalition (or partnership) not invisage such a power vacuum ? And if not, why not ?
    Two good, but difficult to answer questions. We had enough troops a job. That's clear. We just didn't have the kind of force flexible enough to support the combat intensive and stability operation. Whether or not CENTCOM envisioned this is unclear. (I'm assuming they didn't.) However, things are coming increasingly under control. It takes several days for troops to get these kinds of situations under control.

    Originally posted by Marko

    Why did I see images of US troops initially securing the Ministry of Information (a bomb wrecked deserted building) and the Ministry of Oil (similar) and not initially securing the hospitials instead ? That is just ludricous.
    Bombed out or not, the military will want to secure government buildings quickly. You hope the bombs were enough to render the facility useless to the enemy and keep him away from it. This allows you to go in and secure critical documents.

    Hospitals are not military targets. When the troops first entered both Basra and Baghdad, their first priority was seizing control. Hospitals are not considered key terrain in a combat intensive operation. It might appear unhumane, but I know you've been in the military and understand the logic to it.

    Originally posted by Marko

    Why have the coalition partnership not had ready tonnes of medical supplies that can be flown into Iraq ? By helicopter and with combat medics and teams to assist in first aid emergency treatment for Iraqi civilians.
    This is a military operation, not a humanitarian effort. The logistical and medical demands on our forces are heavy as it is. We can't support every hospital in Iraq. Most military units do treat civilians. I believe there is something like a five to one ration in favor of Iraqi citizens. A CNN correspondant was called on several times to do nureosurgry. He was a nureologist. He tried to save a little girl shot in the head at a check point, but she died.

    There's only so much you can do militarily.

    Originally posted by Marko

    I have just watched images of a child dying in his fathers arms. I am a father and the sight sickened me to my stomach. The boy will die before the night is through, he needs a 500 operation that could be done in 30 minutes. But there is simply no supplies to enable this operation. And on the other station the US and UK fly in more ammunition and equipment, absoulutely sickening. and no 'that's war' replies please. The invaders have the mandate to help the Iraqis and to provide medical care for them, but the coalition partnership just can't cope - they were totally unprepared for their own victims.
    Marko this is a military operation. I don't like civilian casualties, but it's a risk I accept. None of our soldiers out there are heartless punks. Many have children of their own. However, this is war. The faster we secure the place, the faster supplies could be brought in. We can't ask humanitarian groups to go in if the area isn't safe enough. A couple of ambushes by Saddam's morons, and some of the contracted companies might withdraw or demand more security.

    Mscalculations are a part of war. You must remember we are just twenty-four days into this battle. Had Saddam spent more money on medicine, the people would have supplies. What sickened me is that as our troops clear these cities, they are finding warehouse after warehouse stocked full of food and medical supplies Saddam withheld from the people.

    There were things we could have done better. However, overall, we're making adjustments. Suffering Iraqis is counter-productive to our efforts. So I'm certain they are doing what they can. However, the lack of manpower is a real problem.

    I will say I would prefer Rumsfield step down. I'm not prepared to blame him for the problems we're having in Iraq just yet. However, I am tired of his big mouth, and the negative image he seems to promote. He's too gung-ho to control the US military.
    "As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942

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    • #3
      Re: Idiotic Planning

      Originally posted by Marko
      Some questions and points regarding the latest conflict in the Gulf.

      Several people from this forum stated how there were not enough troops involved with the ground invasion. This was highlighted by the inadequacy at quelling the initial looting and mayhem in Basra and Baghdad. Did the coalition (or partnership) not invisage such a power vacuum ? And if not, why not ?

      Why did I see images of US troops initially securing the Ministry of Information (a bomb wrecked deserted building) and the Ministry of Oil (similar) and not initially securing the hospitials instead ? That is just ludricous.

      Why have the coalition partnership not had ready tonnes of medical supplies that can be flown into Iraq ? By helicopter and with combat medics and teams to assist in first aid emergency treatment for Iraqi civilians.

      I have just watched images of a child dying in his fathers arms. I am a father and the sight sickened me to my stomach. The boy will die before the night is through, he needs a 500 operation that could be done in 30 minutes. But there is simply no supplies to enable this operation. And on the other station the US and UK fly in more ammunition and equipment, absoulutely sickening. and no 'that's war' replies please. The invaders have the mandate to help the Iraqis and to provide medical care for them, but the coalition partnership just can't cope - they were totally unprepared for their own victims.
      I don't think the Coalition anticipated the collapse of the Iraqis in Baghdad. They expected to have to fight for every block. In that case, the coalition I'm sure would have had a ready supply of food and medicine for the areas that would have been brought under control.
      With the quick collapse that occurred, there just wasn't enough time to make ready supplies for a city of 5 million.
      Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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      • #4
        Seen this one coming a mile away.Now that the criticism of the war was ineptly planned has been proven hollow the next target is the reinstitution of order.It'll take a couple weeks under even perfect circumstances to get all services and needed supplies flowing.As far as the looting rampages go i think that it was a good idea to step back for a couple days and let those people get out their frustrations that way,the only other alternative was for them to focus their energies upon coalition forces if they tried to stop them.Most of the regular folk will by now have calmed down and try to return to their daily lives,leaving only a hardcore of criminals and toughs for the coalition forces to impose order on in the cities,and trust me there will not be as much bad press over that as if they had tried to ensure order from the getgo and had to shoot or detain looters.

        I bet you right now there are quite a few iraqis looking at all the stuff they grabbed in the heat of the moment and wondering what the hell am i going to do with all this crap.
        Last edited by John Paul; 13 Apr 03, 19:01.

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        • #5
          You have good points Marko. The level of humanitarian effort so far is unsufficient, nobody can deny it.

          But I am also realistic. You talk about "idiotic planning", but I am not even sure if there is something such as perfect or just good planning in a situation like this. You elaborate some scenarios and prepare for some cases, but in the end you adjust and react to events that you did not necessarily forecast.

          What is important now is to see how fast the Coalition will adjust to the situation.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tzar
            You have good points Marko. The level of humanitarian effort so far is unsufficient, nobody can deny it.

            But I am also realistic. You talk about "idiotic planning", but I am not even sure if there is something such as perfect or just good planning in a situation like this. You elaborate some scenarios and prepare for some cases, but in the end you adjust and react to events that you did not necessarily forecast.

            What is important now is to see how fast the Coalition will adjust to the situation.
            I'd agree with 'idiotic planning', if you are going in to "liberate" a people, you'd think you'd have the resources in place to "liberate", as it is, they seem to have enough resources for military action, and thats it.
            There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary, and those that dont...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by John Paul


              I bet you right now there are quite a few iraqis looking at all the stuff they grabbed in the heat of the moment and wondering what the hell am i going to do with all this crap.
              I don't know, I saw some guy running off with plastic flowers. I can imagine a hundred and one uses for plastic flowers.

              The best thing was his facial expression, he genuinely believed he was on a winner.

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