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T4, R1, Prng 178: Yamato Class (Japan) vs Iowa Class (USA)

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  • T4, R1, Prng 178: Yamato Class (Japan) vs Iowa Class (USA)

    In your opinion, which of these two warship types was most significant, influential and/or effective?
    Feel free to apply those criteria as you please, along with any others you think appropriate.
    Note: Suggestions for some additional criteria are at the foot of this post.

    According to the criteria as you see and apply them, please vote for your preferred candidate in the attached poll.
    If your chosen criteria are significantly different from those suggested, telling us what they are and why you used them would be helpful.





    201: Yamato Class


    There were two Yamato class battleships completed as such; Yamato and Musashi. The original intention was to build four but the third ship - Shinano - was converted to an aircraft carrier during construction and the fourth was cancelled altogether when only 30% complete. Yamato and Musashi were laid down in November 1937 and March 1938, being commissioned in December 1941 and August 1942, respectively. These two battleships were most distinctive for their sheer size and displacement; neither surpassed nor equaled by any other class to go to sea; although the American Iowa class were not all that much less. In addition however, the Yamatos carried the biggest guns ever fitted to a battleship.
    The Japanese knew they could not build anywhere near as many battleships as their most likely potential enemy, the USA. This was a compelling motive to build some much bigger and more powerful ships. The Yamato class battleships had an overall length of 263m (862ft 10in) and a beam of 38.9m (127ft 7in). As built, normal displacement was 65,027 metric tons, up to 71,659 at full load. Draft at full load was 10.86m (35ft 8in). Naturally, displacement and draft increased somewhat during service, when additional AA armament was fitted. Initial complement was about 2,500 officers and men.

    Steam was supplied by 12 boilers, with 4 sets of steam turbines for propulsion; each driving one shaft with a screw 6m (19ft 8in) in diameter. The system allowed a maximum sustainable speed of 27 knots. This was not as fast as the carriers the Yamatos would potentially need to work with, but that was by no means a uniquely Japanese experience. Standard capacity for fuel oil stowage was 6,400 metric tons, which allowed for a range of about 7,200nmi at 16 knots. This represented a relatively high rate of consumption which tended to limit the Yamatos' sphere of activity. For example, neither of them was used in combat during the Solomon Islands Campaign or the minor battles during the "island hopping" period of 1943 - early 1944.

    Upon completion, main armament for the Yamato class was 9 x 460mm (18.1in) 45 caliber Type 94 naval guns in three triple-gun turrets; two superfiring fore and one aft. These guns were the largest caliber of naval artillery ever fitted to a warship and they were capable of firing high-explosive or armor-piercing shells up to a distance of 22.6nmi. Their maximum rate of fire was between 1.5 and 2 rounds per minute.
    The secondary battery consisted of 12 x 155mm (6.1in) 60 caliber 3rd Year Type guns mounted in four triple turrets; one forward, one aft and two amidships.
    Supplementary armament included 12 x 127mm (5in) /40 Type 89 naval guns in six twin mounts, 3 each side amidships, for heavy AA use. In addition, there were 24 x Type 96 25mm (1in) AA guns, most of which were mounted amidships, as well as 2 x twin 13.2mm (0.52in) Hotchkiss M1929 heavy machine guns. The supplementary armament fit was upgraded during service.

    As we might expect, armor protection on the Yamato class was very heavy. The main belt had a maximum thickness of 410mm (16.1in). Joined to its lower edge, some way below the waterline, was another belt of 270mm (10.6in) maximum thickness. The ends of the citadel were closed off by 355mm (14in) thick transverse bulkheads; other main bulkheads within it ranging from 300–340 mm (11.8–13.4in). Underneath the magazines, there were horizontal armor plates ranging from 50 - 80mm (2 - 3.1in), for protection against mine damage. For protection against torpedoes, there was a longitudinal multiple bulkhead system 5.1m (16ft 9in) deep, consisting of several void spaces behind the lower armor belt. However, despite the known benefits none of these contained any liquid. (This may have been overestimating the effectiveness of the lower belt armor and/or a desire to decrease draft and provide additional counter-flooding spaces.)
    There were two armor thicknesses for the main deck; 75% being 200mm (7.9in), while the remaining most critical 25% received 230mm (9in). In total, there were 1,147 watertight compartments, of which 1,065 were beneath the armored deck. The ships were also designed with a very large amount of reserve buoyancy to mitigate the effects of flooding.
    Armor for the main gun turrets was the heaviest of all, with 650mm (25.6in) front plates, 250mm (9.8in) sides and 270mm (10.6in) roofs. Barbette armor ranged from 560mm (22in) down to 280mm (11in). The secondary turrets were given 50mm (2in) of armor. The conning tower had vertical armor 500mm (19.7in) thick and a 200mm (7.9in) roof.
    Despite these armor thicknesses, there were a few significant flaws. For example, poor jointing between the upper and lower armored belts created a rupture-prone seam just below the waterline, which - when combined with the relatively shallow system depth and the lack of liquid loading - caused the class to be less resistant to torpedoes than had been envisaged.


    Yamato fitting out at the Kure Naval Base in Hiroshima, Japan, 20 September 1941
    (Viewed from astern, port quarter)

    image_85293.jpg


    During WW2, Yamato and Musashi both saw a small amount of action before meeting their respective fates. Opportunities were somewhat restricted and they did not achieve a great deal. Their carrier sister, Shinano, was prematurely commissioned and quickly destroyed, having achieved nothing. All three were sunk by the US Navy: Yamato and Musashi succumbed to carrier air attack and Shinano was sunk by a submarine.

    Yamato:
    Thru 1942 and into early 1943, Yamato served as flagship of the Combined Fleet, with Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto directing the fleet from her bridge during the June 1942 Battle of Midway. She spent the rest of 1943 and much of 1944 moving between the major Japanese naval bases of Truk and Kure in response to American threats. Although present at the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June 1944, she played no part in the fighting. The one occasion when Yamato fired her main guns at enemy surface targets was between 22 and 25 October 1944 when, as part of a strike force, she took part in one of the largest naval engagements in history; the Battle of Leyte Gulf. In response to the American invasion of the Philippines, Yamato was among a number of Japanese groups tasked to disrupt the landings. En route, the force was attacked by US submarines, which sank two heavy cruisers and damaged a third. Then, while threatening to sink American troop transports, the Japanese encountered a light American escort carrier group. The American air attacks were so intense that the Japanese ships turned back, convinced they had run into a powerful US carrier fleet.
    Musashi:
    After her commissioning in mid 1942, Musashi spent much of the remainder of that year working up, as well as being modified to serve as Combined Fleet flagship, to relieve Yamato when required. She took over this position in early 1943 and was transferred to Truk, from where she sortied several times during the year in unsuccessful searches for American forces. Going into 1944, Musashi was used to transfer forces and equipment between Japan and various occupied islands. Early in that year, she was damaged by an American submarine and had to return to Japan for repairs. While this work was being done, her AA armament was greatly increased. Although present during the June 1944 Battle of the Philippine Sea, she did not come into contact with American surface forces. However, her "luck" was not to last. On 24 October 1944, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf, she came under intense attack from American carrier aircraft. Having sustained an estimated 19 torpedo and 17 bomb hits, she sank; although over half of her crew was able to be rescued.
    Shinano:
    Shinano's conversion to a carrier was still not fully completed when, in November 1944, she was ordered to carry 50 rocket-propelled flying bombs to Kure Naval Base and complete her fitting out there. She was still carrying a substantial number of civilian workers. En route, on 29 November 1944 - a mere 10 days after being commissioned - she was hit by four torpedos from the US Navy submarine Archerfish. Although over 1,000 sailors and civilians were able to be rescued, 1,435 were lost, including her captain. Shinano remains the largest warship ever sunk by a submarine.

    In 1944, the balance of naval power in the Pacific had already decisively and irrevocably turned against Japan. In the final year of WW2, its fleet was much depleted and badly hobbled by critical fuel shortages in the home islands. Yamato's final mission was in April 1945, as part of Operation Ten-Go; the Imperial Japanese Navy's desperate attempt to slow the Allied advance. Yamato, accompanied by nine other warships, embarked from Japan for a suicide attack on Allied forces engaged in the Battle of Okinawa. The group as such never made it. Before they could reach Okinawa, they came under relentless attacks by US carrier aircraft. Yamato and five other Japanese ships were sunk. Most of Yamato's crew perished with her. This battle grimly underlined US air supremacy in the Asia-Pacific theater. Also, if confirmation was needed by this point, it certainly confirmed again the vulnerability of surface warships lacking air cover.


    Musashi under air attack on October 24 1944, during the Battle of Leyte Gulf

    image_85294.jpg


    A very impressive 1/10 scale model of Yamato in the Kure Maritime Museum

    image_85295.jpg


    When Yamato and Musashi were conceived, designed and laid down, few if any of the World's navies seem to have appreciated just how quickly or completely the aircraft - especially when deployed by carriers - would become so decisive. Nevertheless, within a few years it was obvious that the battleship was no longer king. That aside, the great battleship classes of WW2 still seem very impressive to many and the Yamatos, with their heaviest armor, biggest guns and a reasonable turn of speed, certainly look the business! Of course, we can flag their negligible contribution to the Japanese cause in WW2. However, I still find them to be impressive pieces of naval engineering; especially given Japan's rapid and relatively recent development as a prominent industrial power.


    General characteristics* (*As built. Excludes Shinano)

    Displacement – 65,027 metric tons (normal); 71,659 at full load
    Length – 263m (862ft 10in) (overall)
    Beam – 38.9m (127ft 7in)
    Draft – 10.86m (35ft 8in) (full load)
    Propulsion – 4 sets of steam turbines, 4 shafts, 12 boilers
    Maximum speed:
    27 knots
    Range at 16 knots:
    7,200nmi with 6,400 metric tons of fuel oil
    Armament:
    Primary – 9 x 460mm (18.1in) 45 caliber Type 94 naval guns
    Secondary – 12 x 155mm (6.1in) 60 caliber 3rd Year Type guns
    Supplementary (a) – 12 x 127mm (5in) /40 Type 89 naval guns
    Supplementary (b) - 24 x Type 96 25mm (1in) AA guns
    Supplementary (c) - 2 x twin 13.2mm (0.52in) Hotchkiss M1929 heavy machine guns
    Armor:
    Belt (main) – 410mm (16.1in) (max)
    Belt (lower) - 270mm (10.6in) (max)
    Horizontal armor under magazines - 50 - 80mm (2 - 3.1in)
    Main armored deck – 200 - 230mm (7.9 - 9in)
    Main turrets - 650mm (25.6in) (max)
    Main turret barbettes - 280 - 560mm (11 - 22in)
    Secondary turrets - 50mm (2in)
    Conning tower – 500mm (19.7in) (vertical); 200mm (7.9in) (horizontal)
    Bulkheads (main, transverse) – 300 - 355mm (11.8 - 14in)
    Complement – About 2,500 (initial)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato-class_battleship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...tleship_Yamato
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...leship_Musashi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...arrier_Shinano
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa-class_battleship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands_campaign
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_cm/...e_94_naval_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15.5_c...Type_naval_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.7_c...e_89_naval_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_96_25_mm_AT/AA_Gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchk...29_machine_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Fleet

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuuk_Lagoon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kure,_Hiroshima
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...Philippine_Sea
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ten-Go
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa




    219: Iowa Class


    The Iowa Class was intended to be six ships but only four were completed and commissioned. These four were Iowa, New Jersey, Wisconsin and Missouri. They were laid down between 27 June 1940 and 25 January 1941, entering commission from 22 February 1943 to 11 June 1944. The Iowas were designed to be true "fast battleships"; that is, able to chase down and destroy the fastest enemy capital ships but also capable of taking on the toughest opposition in a traditional line of battle. These attributes would, in turn, enable them to act as a "fast wing" when working with slower, older American battleships. The Iowas had been preceded in service by the South Dakota class (also featured in this tournament); the new ships being designed to meet the Second London Naval Treaty's "escalator clause" limit of 45,000 long tons standard displacement; that is, 10,000 tons greater than the South Dakotas.
    The Iowas would be the last battleships commissioned in the US Navy. They had an overall length of 887ft 3in (270.4m) and a beam of 108ft 2in (33m). During WW2, their standard displacement was 47,825 long tons, increasing to 57,540 long tons at full load. In the latter condition, they had a draft of 37ft 2in (11.33m). A typical complement during this period was 2,788 (151 officers and 2,637 enlisted men).

    For propulsion, the Iowas were fitted with 4 sets of geared steam turbines, each driving a single shaft. Steam was provided by 8 Babcock & Wilcox boilers. Combined with a near ideal length-to-beam ratio and good hull design including a bulbous bow, this system enabled a maximum speed of 32.5 knots at full load displacement. Standard maximum fuel capacity was 8,841 long tons, which allowed for a range of 15,900nmi at 17 knots. There were two semi-balanced rudders, giving the ships a tactical turning diameter of 814yds (744m) at 30 knots and 760yds (695m) at 20 knots. The Iowas exhibited good stability, making them steady gun platforms. They also had excellent maneuverability for their size, while seakeeping was described as good but not outstanding. In particular, the long fine bow and sudden widening of the hull just in front of the foremost turret contributed to the ships being rather wet for their size.

    The main armament was 9 x 16in (406mm) /50 cal Mark 7 guns in three triple-gun turrets; a superfiring pair forward and a single turret aft. Secondary and supplementary armament varied over time but from 1943 to early 1944, the secondary fit was 20 x 5in (127mm) /38 cal Mark 12 guns, in ten 2-gun turrets. These were dual purpose weapons; equally useful against both air and surface targets. The supplementary combination varied but a typical mix was 76 x 40mm /56 cal Bofors AA guns and 52 x 20mm /70 cal Oerlikon AA cannon. The Iowas were equipped with two aircraft catapults and could carry three floatplanes for recon and target spotting.

    The Iowas had an "all or nothing" armor scheme with relatively good levels of protection, largely modeled on the preceding South Dakotas. It was designed to give a "zone of immunity" between 18,000 and 30,000 yards, against fire from 16in 45-caliber guns. Behind the 1.5in (38mm) outer plating, the citadel sides were protected by a 12.1in (307mm) class A armored belt mounted on a 0.875in (22.2mm) STS (Special Treatment Steel) backing plate. Sloped at 19 degrees, this was deemed equivalent to 17.3in (439mm) of vertical class B armor at 19,000 yards. The belt extended below the waterline, tapering to 1.62in (41mm) where it met a triple bottom. The citadel ends were closed off by transverse bulkheads. These were 11.3in (287mm) thick on Iowa and New Jersey but were increased to 14.5in (368mm) on Wisconsin and Missouri (Given the Iowas' speed, fire from directly ahead was considered more likely.) Torpedo defense was a modified version of the system on the South Dakotas. This was an "internal bulge" with spaced longitudinal bulkheads forming a system depth of 17ft 11in (5.46m). Some of the spaces were liquid loaded to disrupt the gas bubble. The system was improved over that of the South Dakotas by closer spacing of transverse bulkheads, greater thickness of the lower belt where it joined the triple bottom and increased total volume. Astern of the citadel, the internal steering gear and prop shafts were protected by 13.5in (343mm) side strakes and a 5.6 - 6.2in (142 - 157mm) roof. Outside the hull, the inboard shafts were covered by armored skegs.
    Deck protection was on three levels. The weather deck had 1.5in (38mm) of STS. The main deck was armored to a thickness of 6in (152mm) and below this was a 0.63in (16mm) splinter deck. Over the magazines. the splinter deck was replaced by 1in (25mm) plating. In addition, for protection against flashback there were 1.5in (38mm) bulkheads separating the turret platforms from the magazine rooms. The main turrets had 19.5in (495mm) faces, with 9.5in (241mm) sides, 12in (305mm) rears and 7.25in (184mm) roofs. Barbette armor ranged from 11.6in (295mm) to 17.3in (439mm). The secondary turrets and their handling spaces were protected by 2.5in (64m) of STS. The conning tower was given 17.3in (439mm) on all sides and 7.25in (184mm) for the roof.


    Missouri (BB-63) transiting the Panama Canal in October 1945

    image_85296.jpg


    With the first of their class being commissioned in February 1943 and the fourth in June 1944, the Iowas were rather late entrants to the naval conflict in WW2. Nevertheless, in addition to proving their value in that war they also enjoyed very substantial and indeed, quite exceptional post-war careers, as outlined below:

    Iowa:
    Iowa was the last lead ship of any class of United States battleships and the only member of her class to serve in the Atlantic during World War Two. Her mission was to safely carry President Franklin D. Roosevelt across to Mers El Kebir, in Algeria, North Africa. Roosevelt was to attend the vital Tehran Conference, from 28 November to 1 December 1943, with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Josef Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union. This conference would - among other things - set the plan for the final defeat of the Axis powers.
    After her transfer to the Pacific Fleet in 1944, Iowa shelled beachheads at Kwajalein and Eniwetok atolls in the Marshall Islands, in advance of amphibious landings. She also performed a vital service screening aircraft carriers in the region. At the end of WW2, she was present as the Third Fleet flagship when the Japanese signed the instrument of surrender aboard Missouri in Tokyo Bay, on 2 September 1945.
    During the Korean War (June 1950 - July 1953), Iowa was involved in raids on the North Korean coast. After that, she was decommissioned into the United States Navy reserve fleets (known as "the mothball fleet"). She was re-activated in 1984 as part of the 600-ship Navy plan and operated in both the Atlantic and Pacific fleets to help counter the recently expanded Soviet Navy. There was a tragic incident in April 1989, when an explosion of undetermined origin wrecked her #2 gun turret, resulting in the deaths of 47 sailors.
    Iowa was decommissioned for the last time in October 1990 and stricken from the register in 1995. Nevertheless, she was reinstated from 1999 to 2006, to comply with federal laws requiring retention and maintenance of two Iowa class battleships. Finally, in 2011, she was donated to the Pacific Battleship Center, to be opened to the public as a museum ship at the Port of Los Angeles in 2012.
    New Jersey:
    During World War 2, New Jersey shelled targets on Guam and Okinawa as well as screening aircraft carriers conducting raids on the Marshall Islands. In the Korean War, she was involved in raids up and own the North Korean coast, after which she was decommissioned into the reserve fleets. In 1968, she was briefly re-activated and sent to Vietnam to support US troops before returning to the "mothball fleet" in 1969. New Jersey was reactivated again in the 1980s for the 600-ship Navy program and she was modernized to carry missiles. In 1983, she participated in US operations during the Lebanese Civil War.
    New Jersey's final decommissioning was in 1991. She had earned a Navy Unit Commendation for service in the Vietnam war, as well as 19 battle and campaign stars for combat operations in WW2, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Lebanese Civil War and service in the Persian Gulf. As such, New Jersey had earned more battle stars for combat actions than the other three Iowa class ships and had been the only US battleship providing gunfire support during the Vietnam War. After some time in the "mothball fleet", she was donated to the Home Port Alliance in Camden, New Jersey, and became a museum ship in October 2001.
    Wisconsin:
    Wisconsin served in the Pacific Theater of WW2, where she shelled Japanese fortifications and screened US aircraft carriers as they conducted air raids against enemy positions. During the Korean War, she shelled North Korean targets in support of United Nations and South Korean ground operations, after which she was decommissioned. She was reactivated in August 1986 and after a modernization program, participated in Operation Desert Storm during the Gulf War in January and February 1991.
    Wisconsin was last decommissioned in September 1991, having earned a total of six battle stars for service in World War II and Korea, as well as a Navy Unit Commendation for her Gulf War service. She was stricken from the register in March 2006 and donated for permanent use as a museum ship. The City of Norfolk officially took ownership in April 2010 and she is now at the Nauticus National Maritime Center in Norfolk, Virginia.
    Missouri:
    Missouri entered commission in June 1944 and as such, she was the last battleship commissioned by the United States. She is probably best remembered for receiving the formal surrender of the Empire of Japan, which officially ended World War 2. Serving in the Pacific Theater, she had fought in the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa and she shelled the Japanese home islands. Subsequently, she fought in the Korean War from 1950 to 1953.
    In 1955, she was decommissioned into the United States Navy reserve fleets but reactivated and modernized in 1984 as part of the 600-ship Navy plan. As with Wisconsin, Missouri served During Operation Desert Storm in January/February 1991.
    She received a total of 11 battle stars for her service in World War II, Korea, and the Persian Gulf, and was finally decommissioned on 31 March 1992 but remained on the Naval Vessel Register until struck in January 1995. In 1998, she was donated to the USS Missouri Memorial Association and became a museum ship at Pearl Harbor.

    In the post-WW2 period, there was lengthy debate over whether battleships should have a role in the modern navy. Nevertheless, the Iowa class must have been deemed worth the cost of re-activation and further service, when the need arose.


    Iowa (BB-61) demonstrates the impressive power of her broadside, August 1984

    image_85297.jpg


    Crew members man the rails aboard USS New Jersey (BB-62), January 1985
    Naval Air Station, North Island, California

    image_85298.jpg


    The Iowa class battleships had been well designed and they were very successful. They began by proving themselves during their early years of service, seeing substantial action up to the end of WW2, without loss. We should also consider the usefulness of their post-war service, albeit intermittent, which did not finally end until the early 1990s. As such, they are not only very remarkable but also quite unique.


    General characteristics* (*At time of service entry)

    Displacement – 47,825 long tons (standard); 57,540 long tons (full load)
    Length – 887ft 3in (270.4m)
    Beam – 108ft 2in (33m)
    Draft – 37ft 2in (11.33m) (at full load)
    Propulsion – 4 sets of geared steam turbines, 4 shafts, 8 boilers
    Maximum speed:
    32.5 knots (at full load displacement)
    Range at 17 knots:
    15,900nmi with 8,841 long tons of fuel oil
    Armament:
    Primary – 9 x 16in (406mm) /50 cal Mark 7 guns
    Secondary – 20 x 5in (127mm) /38 cal Mark 12 guns
    Supplementary (a) – 76 x 40mm /56 cal Bofors AA guns (typical)
    Supplementary (b) - 52 x 20mm /70 cal Oerlikon AA cannon (typical)
    Armor:
    Belt (main) – 12.1in (307mm) + 0.875in (22.2mm) STS
    Decks – 1.5in (38mm) (upper); 6in (152mm) (main); 0.63in (16mm) (splinter)
    Main turrets - 495mm (19.5in) (max)
    Barbettes - 17.3in (439mm) (max)
    Secondary turrets - 2.5in (64mm)
    Conning tower – 17.3in (439mm) (vertical); 7.25in (184mm) horizontal
    Bulkheads – 11.3 - 14.5in (287 - 368mm) (main)
    Complement – 2,788 (151 officers and 2,637 enlisted)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa-class_battleship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_(BB-61)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_Jersey_(BB-62)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wisconsin_(BB-64)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Missouri_(BB-63)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_battleship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...tleship_(1939)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...n_Naval_Treaty
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16%22/...ber_Mark_7_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%22/38_caliber_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_treatment_steel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Conference
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Islands
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...reserve_fleets
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/600-ship_Navy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Los_Angeles
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_Prefecture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_Unit_Commendation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauticus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Iwo_Jima




    In this match, we compare two extremely powerful battleship classes.
    Your task is to choose the one that you think should make Round 2!
    Which way will you go?



    Suggested additional criteria you might wish to consider, along with any others you deem appropriate.
    (Note: Some of these could be considered already covered by Significant, Influential and Effective)


    Which warship type ...
    • was the best?
    • was the greatest?
    • was the most widely used?
    • had the greatest longevity in service?
    • was the most versatile?
    • represented the best value for the cost/effort invested ("bang for the buck" in today's language)?
    • was the easiest to operate?
    Any other criteria you have applied (please tell us what they were).
    15
    201: Yamato class (Japan)
    40.00%
    6
    219: Iowa class (USA)
    60.00%
    9
    Last edited by panther3485; 20 Sep 20, 10:16.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    I could just be a "homer", but I went with the Iowa as being a more well rounded ship.

    Comment


    • #3
      I love both classes but believe the Iowas were better ships. The quality of the armor, high ship speed and range, the guns also hit harder, the guns could also fire at longer range and accuracy.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #4
        In a one on one duel I would say Yamato would edge it due to bigger guns and thicker armour. However there were four Iowas vs two Yamato. Iowas had a much longer service, mainly because the Yamatos were both sunk. Both are extremely famous for being the ultimate battleships. On vfm both were relatively poor,but that is to be expected. Possibly if you just take ww2 the Yamatoes were slightly better vfm than the Iowas, the US had more than enough battleships before the Iowas were commissioned.

        Close but Yamato edges it.
        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

        Comment


        • #5
          I can't consider length of service as the destruction of the Yamato class was a foregone conclusion whether they survived the war or not. Aside from that I give the nod to the Iowa BBs for speed and more accurate delivery of their main guns.

          Regards,
          Dennis
          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

          Comment


          • #6
            I went with the IOWA class. I mean, how many YAMATO class battleships are museums now?
            ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
            IN MARE IN COELO

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
              " .... I mean, how many YAMATO class battleships are museums now?"
              Given that they were both sunk, the closest we can get is the 1/10 scale model. ....
              ... unless we are ready to sponsor a diving expedition?

              ..... It IS a very nice model.
              "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
              Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you seen the one of INTREPID done in Legos? It's about the same size.
                ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                IN MARE IN COELO

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
                  Have you seen the one of INTREPID done in Legos? It's about the same size.
                  No; but then I have to confess a very low general level of interest in anything built from Lego. That said, you've got me just curious enough to google it, so I'll have a look today.

                  Edit: Found it very quickly and easily. Yeah, not bad, I guess.

                  Looks quite a lot smaller than the Japanese Yamato model,
                  but nevertheless a fairly impressive effort:

                  USS Intrepid xox.jpg
                  Last edited by panther3485; 24 Sep 20, 19:37.
                  "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                  Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                  • #10
                    I'm just a bit biased regarding INTREPID...
                    ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                    IN MARE IN COELO

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
                      I'm just a bit biased regarding INTREPID...
                      Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy bias here and there.
                      "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                      Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                      • #12
                        Comparing them solely on the merits of the design, the Yamato comes off a poor second to Iowa.

                        Starting with the main plant: Yamato uses a 354 psi 600 degree plant. The Iowa's used 600 psi 750 degree. This gives a significant advantage to the Iowa in propulsion efficiency.
                        The Yamato uses a 225 VDC electrical system with 8 600 kw generators, 4 turbine, 4 diesel. Emergency power is provided by batteries. The Iowa's use a 450 VAC system with 8 turboelectric generators and 4 emergency diesels as back up. Both use a ring bus distribution system.
                        This gives the Iowa, again, a big advantage in electric power and reliability particularly from battle damage.

                        The Iowa also has a much more efficient hull form. The Iowa class, like the preceding S. Dakota class were designed and tested extensively with models at the David Taylor basin to get the best hull form. The Japanese were, in a coarse sense, guessing. It was solely a paper exercise for their designers as they had nothing like the Taylor basin to test their designs in.

                        Overall, the Iowa wins on this score totally.

                        In armor there is less to choose. Both ships were relatively conventional for the period and both used a sloped belt that tapered into a torpedo defense bulkhead. The Iowa's have some advantage in that they have multiple armored decks designed not only to stop penetrations but make them more difficult by decapping the shell making the main armored deck more effective, placing a thin armored deck behind that to absorb any fragments from a penetration, etc. The Japanese went with one thick deck.
                        In torpedo defenses, the Yamato class was unique in using a dry system that had been abandoned by other navies in favor of liquid loading. This made the Yamato class far more vulnerable to torpedo hits and flooding as there was no liquid in the system to displace seawater.

                        In gunnery, the Iowa's 16"/50 guns are virtually equal in performance to the Japanese 18" gun. So there's not a lot to choose. Iowa has a much more effective fire control system than the Yamato, particularly once the Mk 8 FC radar is available. The US fire control computer system is also much better.
                        In secondary guns, the use of a 6" surface battery and 5" AA battery was a mistake on Japan's part. Of course, half the 6" were later removed in favor of more 5" AA guns. But the 5" AA guns are of mediocre quality at best. They had a relatively low velocity giving them a shorter range and lower ceiling. Otherwise, they were middling for a gun that size.
                        Compared to the US 5"/38, the Yamato has a large but inefficient AA battery. While Yamato does have some advantage in surface firepower with the 6" guns, these were never used in combat as far as I can tell so they proved of little or no value.

                        In a duel, the Iowa would almost certainly be the victor. The Iowa is likely to have an early firing solution that is many times more accurate than the Yamato's and can fire to the same effective range. Once Yamato has taken a few hits, it's all downhill to defeat for it.

                        Iowa wins.

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                        • #13
                          I would say the Iowa-class was best and the greatest.

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