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T4, R1, Prng 177: North Carolina Class (USA) vs South Dakota Class (USA)

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  • T4, R1, Prng 177: North Carolina Class (USA) vs South Dakota Class (USA)

    In your opinion, which of these two warship types was most significant, influential and/or effective?
    Feel free to apply those criteria as you please, along with any others you think appropriate.
    Note: Suggestions for some additional criteria are at the foot of this post.

    According to the criteria as you see and apply them, please vote for your preferred candidate in the attached poll.
    If your chosen criteria are significantly different from those suggested, telling us what they are and why you used them would be helpful.





    217: North Carolina Class


    The North Carolina class consisted of two fast battleships, North Carolina and Washington. North Carolina was laid down in October 1937, with Washington following in June 1938. They were commissioned in April & May 1941 respectively, having been preceded by the Colorado class (also featured in this tournament).
    The North Carolinas had an overall length of 728ft 8.6in (222.1m), with a beam of 108ft 3.9in (33m). In 1942, the standard displacement was 36,600 tons while full load displacement was 44,800 tons, for a maximum draft of 35ft 6in (10.82m). At design combat displacement of 42,329 tons, the mean draft was 31ft 7.3in (9.63m).
    At commencement of service, their complement was 1,880 (108 officers and 1,772 enlisted). However, by 1945 the increases in AA armament and complement had raised displacement by almost 2,000 tons and crew strength by over 400. After World War 2, crews were reduced to 1,774.

    Propulsive power came from 4 General Electric geared turbines driving 4 screws, with steam supplied by 8 Babcock & Wilcox boilers. The system was divided into four engine rooms, each containing one turbine set and two boilers. The screws were of two sizes; the outer units being 15ft 4in (4.67m) in diameter while the inner two were 16ft 7.5in (5.07m). There were two rudders. When commissioned, the ships' top speed was 28 knots but this fell to 26.8 knots by 1945, due to the addition of extra equipment and weaponry. Naturally, the expected range was also affected. In 1941, it was (for example) 17,450nmi at 15 knots. In 1945, at that same speed, it was 16,320nmi. Of course, this relationship between increased displacement and reduced performance applied to any battleship that did not receive a commensurate power upgrade.
    The North Carolinas had a bulbous bow (below waterline, at the bottom) and an unusual stern design for that time: The two inboard shafts were enclosed by skegs. These were a kind of narrow "fairing" that protruded from the underside of the hull. In theory at least, they improved flow conditions for the screws. The initial design had issues; including severe vibrations which were eventually resolved. A significant benefit was their contribution to the structural strength of the stern. In time, skegs would be substantially improved and included in the design of subsequent American battleships.

    Primary armament was 9 x 16in (406mm) /45 caliber Mark 6 guns mounted in 3 triple-gun turrets; two forward as a superfiring pair and one astern. (These guns were an improved variant of those fitted to the preceding Colorado class.)
    The secondary battery consisted of 20 x 5in (127mm) /38 caliber dual purpose guns, mounted in twin turrets clustered amidships - five turrets each side.
    In the original fit, supplementary armament was 16 x 1.1in (28mm) 75 caliber AA guns and 18 x .50cal (12.7mm) Browning machine guns. This was increased significantly during the course of WW2.
    For reconnaissance and target-spotting duties, both ships carried 3 x Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplanes. These were catapult launched and recovered by crane.

    The North Carolina class incorporated an "all or nothing" armor scheme, protection accounting for 41% of total displacement. The main belt was of 12in (305mm) maximum amidships, inclined at 15° and backed by 0.75in (19mm) of STS (Special Treatment Steel). The belt tapered to 6in (152mm) at its lower edge. The overall side protection incorporated five compartments divided by torpedo bulkheads and a large anti-torpedo bulge, with spaced internal layers, running the length of the citadel. As the bulge tapered at both ends, those areas received up to 3.75in (95mm) of extra armor. The complete system was 18ft 6in (5.64m) high. Underwater protection was completed with a triple bottom 5ft 9in (1.75m) deep. There were multiple sub-divisions to help prevent catastrophic flooding if the upper layer was penetrated.
    Deck armor was at three levels; the main deck being 1.45in (37mm) thick, the second - and thickest - having 3.6in (91mm) of armor laminated on 1.4in (36 mm) STS for a total of 5in (127 mm). The third deck was 0.62in (16mm) thick. The main deck was designed to cause delay-fuzed projectiles to detonate, while the thicker second deck would protect the ships' internals. The third deck was intended to protect against shell splinters that might penetrate the second deck. It also served as upper support for the torpedo bulkheads.
    The main turrets were heavily armored, with faces 16in (406mm) thick, 9 - 11.8in (229 - 300mm) sides and 7in (178mm) roofs. Armor for their barbettes ranged from 11.5in (292mm) to 16in. The secondary turrets were armored with 1.95in (50mm) STS plates. Vertical armor on the conning tower was 16in (406mm) for the sides and 14.7in (373mm) front and rear, with 178mm (7in) for the roof. Communications between the conning tower and citadel were protected by a 14in (356mm) thick tube.


    North Carolina gives effective covering fire for the carrier Enterprise, August 1942

    image_85241.jpg


    North Carolina and Washington both saw extensive service in a variety of roles during WW2. Most of this was in the Pacific theater where they were in demand to escort fast carrier task forces, as well as for shore bombardment duties.

    Following the US entry into WW2, North Carolina and Washington were initially sent to North Atlantic waters in the early months of 1942, to support British operations. During a convoy escort mission, Washington sustained some damages in a "friendly" encounter: Two British ships, King George V and the destroyer Punjabi, accidentally collided. Punjabi sank and Washington was too close to completely avoid her wreckage. King George V had to return home for repairs but Washington's damages were not serious so she was able to continue. By the middle of the year, both American ships had been withdrawn.
    North Carolina deployed to the Pacific in June while Washington stopped for refit and minor repairs, following her sister two months later. Both ships experienced their first substantial actions during the Guadalcanal campaign, which ran from August 1942 to February 1943. This was also the first major American offensive against the Japanese, using large scale sea and land forces. North Carolina helped significantly to screen American carriers against air attack. For example, at the Battle of the Eastern Solomons on 24-25 August 1942, she shot down several Japanese aircraft. The following month, she was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine and the damages were quite extensive but not critical. Following repairs, she was back on duty by the end of the year and continued to screen carriers thru 1943 and into 1944.
    Washington was also busy during this period. For example, on the night of 14-15 November 1942, accompanied by the battleship South Dakota and four destroyers, she saw action in the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. South Dakota inadvertently sailed too close to a Japanese squadron and began to draw heavy fire. Washington took advantage of the distraction to attack the battleship Kirishima and destroyer Ayanami, without incurring damage to herself. This action disrupted a planned bombardment of US Marine positions and forced the remaining Japanese ships to withdraw. Throughout 1943, Washington was mainly occupied with screening the fast carrier task force but occasionally shelled Japanese positions in support of various amphibious assaults.

    Aside from carrier escort, North Carolina's 1944 activities included support for airborne strikes and troop landings on various islands. She had a refit later in the year but was back in service in time to participate in a large portion of the Philippines campaign, which had started on 20 October. Subsequently, she took part in offensive operations to support the the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa in 1945.
    Washington had a collision with the battleship Indiana in February 1944. Following repairs and in company with North Carolina, she took part in the June 19-20 Battle of the Philippine Sea; a major and very decisive naval battle that ended the Imperial Japanese Navy's ability to conduct large-scale carrier operations. Washington also participated in the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign of June - November 1944 as well as the Philippines campaign, following those with support for the capture of Iwo Jima and Okinawa in 1945; although during the latter she was detached from duty for an overhaul. By the time it was completed, the war had come to an end.
    After the end of the war, both ships took part in Operation Magic Carpet, the repatriation of over 8 million US military personnel from the European, Pacific and Asian theaters. Subsequently, they were in reserve until the early 1960's, when North Carolina was sold to the State of North Carolina as a Museum ship. Washington's fate was less happy, as she was broken up for scrap.


    Closeup of North Carolina's A & B turrets, off Japanese coast, July 1945

    image_85242.jpg


    Washington in Puget Sound, September 1945

    image_85243.jpg


    The North Carolina class battleships served their nation very well indeed. They were soundly designed and stoutly robust, with good hitting power and adequate speed. These ships proved themselves to be effective in their assigned tasks. In short, they were excellent value.


    General characteristics* (*On service entry)

    Displacement – 36,600 tons (standard); 44,800 tons (full load)
    Length – 728ft 8.6in (222.1m) (overall)
    Beam – 108ft 3.9in (33m)
    Draft – 31ft 7.3in (9.63m) (mean)
    Propulsion – 4 sets geared steam turbines, 4 screws, 8 boilers
    Maximum speed:
    28 knots
    Range at 15 knots:
    17,450nmi with ...? tons of fuel oil
    Armament:
    Primary – 9 x 16in (406mm) /45 caliber Mark 6 guns
    Secondary – 20 x 5in (127mm) /38 caliber dual purpose guns
    Supplementary (a) – 16 x 1.1in (28mm) 75 caliber AA guns
    Supplementary (b) - 18 x .50cal (12.7mm) Browning machine guns
    Armor:
    Belt – 12in (305mm) (max)
    Decks – 0.62in (16mm) (min) - 5in (127mm) (max)
    Main turrets - 7in (178mm) (min) - 16in (406mm) (max)
    Main turret barbettes - 16in (406mm) (max)
    Secondary turrets - 1.95in (50mm) STS
    Conning tower – 16in (406mm) vertical (max); 7in (178mm) roof
    Complement – 1,880 (108 officers and 1,772 enlisted)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...ass_battleship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_No...rolina_(BB-55)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Washington_(BB-56)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado-class_battleship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16%22/...ber_Mark_6_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%22/38_caliber_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1.1%22/75_caliber_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_OS2U_Kingfisher
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_campaign
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...stern_Solomons
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_...of_Guadalcanal
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip...%E2%80%931945)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Iwo_Jima
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...Philippine_Sea
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian...lands_campaign




    218: South Dakota Class


    The South Dakota class was four ships; South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts and Alabama, laid down from July 1939 to February 1940 and entering commission between March and August 1942. They were designed to the same displacement limit as the preceding North Carolina class; i.e. 35,000 tons, carrying the same main battery of 9 x 16in (406mm) /45 caliber Mark 6 guns in the three-turret layout. The main difference was the South Dakotas' more compact size, allowing heavier armor without a significant increase in displacement. In addition, the South Dakotas were expected to serve as fleet and division flagships, with extra work and accommodation spaces for admirals and staff. A tall order indeed! Numerous changes had to be made to internal layout. For example, some of the boilers were raised one deck level and moved to a position above the screw shafts. Another change was a re-design of the trunking, with a single funnel instead of two.
    The South Dakotas' overall length was 680ft (207.3m), with a beam of 108ft 2in (33m). As of April 1942, standard displacement was 37,682 tons, with designed combat and maximum load displacements of 42,546 and 44,519 tons respectively. Mean draft was 33ft 9.8in (10.3m) at combat displacement. As with the North Carolinas, displacement increased during the war due to additional AA armament. Initial complement was 1,793 officers and men, increasing to well over 2,000 before the end of WW2.

    Given very nearly the same beam as the North Carolinas but a substantially shorter length, the South Dakota class could be expected to be somewhat slower; all other things being equal. It was conservatively estimated that an acceptable top speed between 25.8 and 26.2 knots was possible, if the North Carolina power scheme could be made sufficiently compact to fit the smaller space in South Dakota. This challenge was met and overcome: The boilers were tried in different positions, eventually ending up directly alongside the turbines. The system was arranged as close together as possible, assisted by the evaporators and distilling equipment being placed in the machinery rooms. As with all such compromises, a gain in one place is a loss elsewhere: Berths for the crew, even the staterooms for senior officers, along with mess halls were reduced in size.
    In contrast to the North Carolinas with their two inboard shafts enclosed by skegs, those on the South Dakota class covered the outboard shafts. There were two rudders, mounted behind the inboard screws and in common with the North Carolinas there was also had a bulbous bow. One advantage of the shorter hull was improved maneuverability. Also, the performance shortfall was less than anticipated, with a sustainable top speed of 27.5 knots but of course, as with their predecessors, this was slightly reduced with increased displacement: For example, by 1945 Alabama was making 27.08 knots maximum. The standard load of fuel oil was 6,600 tons, which allowed a range of about of 15,000nmi at 15 knots.

    The main battery was 9 x 16in (406mm) /45 caliber Mark 6 guns in three 3-gun turrets; two placed in a superfiring pair forward and the third mounted aft of the main superstructure. At maximum elevation, their range was up to 36,900 yards (18.2nmi).
    Secondary armament for the South Dakotas consisted of 20 x 5in (127mm) /38 caliber dual purpose guns, mounted in ten twin turrets. The exception was South Dakota herself: Intended as a fleet flagship and needing extra command space, she carried 16 guns, in eight turrets.
    Supplementary armament was essentially all for AA use. When South Dakota was completed, the AA battery was 8 x .50in (12.7mm) and 28 x 1.1in (27.9mm) MGs, as well as 12 x 20mm Oerlikon autocannon. This combination changed a number of times over the course of the war. As with the preceding North Carolinas, all four ships carried 3 x Vought OS2U Kingfisher floatplanes.

    The South Dakota class ships were designed to be resistant against 16in shellfire, from maximum range down to 17,700 yds. Behind the 1.25in (32mm) STS (Special Treatment Steel) outer plating, the internally fitted main belt was 12.2in (310mm) thick and mounted on another STS plate 0.875in (22mm) thick; the combination being inclined 19° from vertical. This was deemed to be equal to 17.3in (440mm) of vertical armor at 19,000 yards. The main belt extended down to the triple bottom with a Class B homogeneous Krupp-type lower belt, tapering from the maximum thickness down to 1in (25mm) at the lowest portion joining the triple bottom. Underwater protection included an internal "bulge" consisting of four longitudinal torpedo bulkheads, forming a multi-layered defense with a total depth of 17.9ft (5.46m). However, longitudinal bulkheads were not fitted in the machinery spaces; to reduce the risk of asymmetric flooding and capsizing. The citadel ends were covered by 11.3in (287mm) transverse bulkheads. Beside mines and torpedoes, compared to the North Carolinas the system was also intended to give significantly better protection against penetration of heavy-caliber gun projectiles hitting below the waterline.
    Deck protection was on three levels; a 1.5in (38mm) STS weather deck (also called "bomb deck"), a combined 5.75–6.05in (146–154mm) Class B and STS second deck, and a 0.63in (16mm) STS splinter deck over the machinery spaces. However, over the magazines there was 1in (25mm) of STS.
    The main gun turrets had 18in (457mm) faces, 9.5in (241mm) sides, 12in (305mm) rears and 7.25in (184mm) roofs. Their barbettes were protected with armor ranging from 11.3in (287mm) to 17.3in (439mm). The secondary turrets received 2in (51mm) of armor and maximum protection for the conning tower was 16in (406mm).


    South Dakota crewmen recovering Kingfisher aircraft in rough conditions, 1943

    image_85244.jpg


    During WW2, the four ships of the South Dakota class served almost entirely in the Pacific region; although there were a few deployments elsewhere. Taken overall, they had very active careers and would see a lot of action. All four ships survived the war.

    South Dakota:
    On entering service, South Dakota was sent to the Pacific to help bolster Allied forces in the Guadalcanal campaign. She was damaged by accidental grounding on an uncharted reef and after repairs, returned to action in time to take part in the October 1942 Battle of Santa Cruz, followed by the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in November. In the latter action, electrical failures hampered her ability to engage and she was targeted by numerous Japanese vessels, sustaining significant damage; although her buoyancy was not seriously threatened. She returned to the US for repairs, which lasted into early 1943. On April 2, South Dakota and Alabama sailed to British waters, to help create a diversion for the forthcoming invasion of Sicily. They also sought to guard against the possibility of the German battleship Tirpitz making a foray into the Atlantic, or harassing the convoys to Russia. By August 1, these objectives were deemed complete and both ships returned to the US, to prepare for Pacific deployment. From the later part of 1943, South Dakota operated mainly with the fast carrier task force, providing strong AA defense. She took part in the 1943-44 Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaign, mid 1944 Mariana and Palau Islands campaign and the beginning of the Philippines campaign later that year. Her 1945 activities included providing support during the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
    Indiana:
    In April 1942, Indiana was also deployed to the Pacific theater, where her two main roles were providing heavy gunfire support for amphibious assaults and AA defense for the fast carrier task force. Her first main task was supporting marines during the Guadalcanal campaign. Other actions included shelling Japanese positions during the Battle of Tarawa in November 1943 and the February 1944 Battle of Kwajalein. In the latter, she collided with the battleship Washington and was forced to withdraw for repairs. Returning to action in April 1944, Indiana assisted during the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign, bombarding Saipan and helping defend the fleet during the Battle of the Philippine Sea. Engine problems kept her out of action for a while after that but she was present for the 1945 battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Following the Japanese surrender, she contributed men to the occupation force before returning to the United States.
    Massachusetts:
    Following completion and shakedown exercises, Massachusetts was assigned to support Operation Torch, the invasion of French North Africa, in November 1942. While there, she engaged in an artillery duel with the incomplete French battleship Jean Bart and neutralized her. After this, she was transferred to the Pacific theater, working mainly as an escort for the fast carrier task force. As such, major events included participation in the 1943-44 Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaign as well as the Philippines campaign thru late 1944 and into 1945. After that, Massachusetts supported Allied forces during the Battle of Okinawa and some attacks on Japan itself, including bombardment of industrial targets on Honshu in July and August.
    Alabama:
    After entering service, Alabama accompanied South Dakota in April 1943, to help the British Home Fleet. By August, their mission was deemed complete and both ships were re-deployed to the Pacific. Alabama's first major action there was during the Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaign, beginning in November. Like her sisters, she served extensively as an escort for the fast carrier task force, protecting the aircraft carriers from surface and air attacks. She was also frequently called upon to bombard Japanese positions in support of amphibious assaults, taking part in the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign from June to September 1944, followed by her contribution to the Philippines campaign from October to December. After a refit in early 1945, she returned to operations during the Battle of Okinawa, followed by a series of attacks on the Japanese mainland in July and August, including industrial targets.

    After the end of the war, South Dakota took part in the initial occupation of Japan before returning to the US in September. She was subsequently laid up in reserve at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, before being sold for scrap in 1962. Indiana had also been placed in reserve, being sold for scrap the following year. Massachusetts was assigned to reserve in 1947 and stricken from the register in 1962. Three years later, she was transferred to the Massachusetts Memorial Committee to be preserved as a museum ship in Fall River, Massachusetts, where she remains to this day. Alabama had helped to carry service personnel home after the end of the war. Following that, she was decommissioned in 1947 and assigned to reserve, until stricken from the register in 1962. There was a successful campaign to save her from the breaker's yard and she is now preserved as a museum ship in Mobile Bay, Alabama.


    Colorized photo of Indiana in the Pacific ocean, early 1944

    image_85245.jpg


    Massachusetts being refueled from a tanker, 1945

    image_85246.jpg


    The South Dakota class battleships were, essentially, up-armored and re-configured versions of the preceding North Carolinas. However, at the time their plans were drawn up and commitment to building had begun, the same treaty limit (35,000 tons) was still being applied. This meant that the new class had to be smaller (shorter) to comply; which in turn inevitably led to relatively more cramped accommodation, further exacerbated as the size of the crew steadily increased during the war. Nevertheless, the South Dakotas' armor/armament combination was very good and speed was not significantly impaired. They were very potent and robust ships, rendering outstanding service to their nation.


    General characteristics* (*On service entry)

    Displacement – 37,682 tons (standard); 42,546 tons (combat)
    Length – 680ft (207.3m) (overall)
    Beam – 108ft 2in (33m)
    Draft – 33ft 9.8in (10.3m) (mean combat)
    Propulsion – 4 sets geared steam turbines, 4 screws, 8 boilers
    Maximum speed:
    27.5 knots
    Range at 15 knots:
    15,000nmi with 6,600 tons of fuel oil
    Armament:
    Primary – 9 x 16in (406mm) /45 caliber Mark 6 guns
    Secondary – 20 x 5in (127mm) /38 caliber dual purpose guns
    Supplementary (a) - 12 x 20mm Oerlikon autocannon
    Supplementary (b) - 28 x 1.1in (27.9mm) MGs
    Supplementary (c) – 8 x .50in (12.7mm) MGs
    Armor:
    Belt – 12.2in (310mm) (max) + 0.875in (22mm) STS
    Bulkheads (main transverse) - 11.3in (287mm)
    Decks – 1.5in (38mm) (min) - 6.05in (154mm) (max)
    Main turrets - 7.25in (184mm) (min) - 18in (457mm) (max)
    Main turret barbettes - 17.3in (439mm) (max)
    Secondary turrets - 2in (51mm) STS
    Conning tower – 16in (406mm) vertical (max)
    Complement – 1,793 officers and men (initial)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...tleship_(1939)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_South_Dakota_(BB-57)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Indiana_(BB-58)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Massachusetts_(BB-59)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Alabama_(BB-60)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16%22/...ber_Mark_6_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%22/38_caliber_gun
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_OS2U_Kingfisher
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_campaign
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...a_Cruz_Islands

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_...%9315_November
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Tirpitz

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Carrier_Task_Force
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilber...lands_campaign

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian...lands_campaign
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip...%E2%80%931945)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Iwo_Jima
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tarawa
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kwajalein
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saipan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...an_Bart_(1940)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honshu

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Fleet




    Here's a match between two classes in the same family:
    Was heavier armor with more cramped accommodation worth the trade-off?
    Is it simply a case of 4 battleships being better than 2?
    Some other considerations? The criteria you apply are up to you but ....
    Only one of these candidates can make the next round!



    Suggested additional criteria you might wish to consider, along with any others you deem appropriate.
    (Note: Some of these could be considered already covered by Significant, Influential and Effective)

    Which warship type ...
    • was the best?
    • was the greatest?
    • was the most widely used?
    • had the greatest longevity in service?
    • was the most versatile?
    • represented the best value for the cost/effort invested ("bang for the buck" in today's language)?
    • was the easiest to operate?
    Any other criteria you have applied (please tell us what they were).
    15
    217: North Carolina class (USA)
    26.67%
    4
    218: South Dakota class (USA)
    73.33%
    11
    Last edited by panther3485; 12 Sep 20, 02:03.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    I always liked the more compact design of the South Dakotas.

    Comment


    • #3
      Slightly better armor, and more AA protection seal it for the Dakotas for me.

      Regards,
      Dennis
      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

      Comment


      • #4
        The South Dakotas had a better designed funnel arrangement. Both of the two classes were excellent ships with good designs.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          Thinking about this. A later build ship will almost always be technically better than an earlier ship of the same type built by the same country. So it would be very surprising if the North Carolinas were better than the South Dakotas.

          The only way the North Carolinas can win is if they made a they had a longer and/or more illustrious service making a greater contribution and on value for money. The Washington seems to have had a creditable service record, particularly at Guadalcanal where she saved the South Dakota. North Carolina also took a significant part in the earlier, more risky part of the war.

          So while the North Carolinas were clearly technically inferior to the SDs I will vote for them due to their service record.

          Last edited by Surrey; 14 Sep 20, 06:05.
          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

          Comment


          • #6
            Also, according to my reading, the South Dakotas - while certainly having some worthwhile improvements over the North Carolinas (the purpose of the re-design) - had relatively more cramped accommodation for their crews. I guess what's harder to evaluate with any certainty is to what extent - if any - the cramped conditions impacted on crew performance.
            "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
            Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm happy to see that the SOUTH DAKOTA class BBs are far ahead of NORTH CAROLINA class in this poll. I have an affinity for the namesake, USS SOUTH DAKOTA (BB-57) as my dad was the CO of the MARDET aboard her during most of her Pacific campaign years. His duty station during general quarters was air-defense officer and, as such, directed all the forward 40mm Bofors AA guns which were served by his USMC detachment. His gunners brought down many Japanese planes during the Marianas Turkey Shoot and other engagements as well.
              I'm sure you know as well that the SOUTH DAKOTA was part of the first naval bombardments of the Japanese mainland in March of 1945.
              USS SOUTH DAKOTA was one of the most decorated ships of WW2 and was awarded 13 battle stars.
              ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
              IN MARE IN COELO

              Comment


              • #8
                It's really great to have a participant in this tournament, with a family connection to any of the warship types we are going to be looking at!

                "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks. Here's a little factoid that I sussed out. Don't know if it means anything or was done on purpose in the first place. Have you noticed that each of the names of the four BBs in the South Dakota class has four syllables, and each is stressed on the third syllable?
                  South Da KO ta
                  Al a BAM a
                  In di AN a
                  Mass a CHU setts

                  Also, SOUTH DAKOTA was the only BB of this class to have a bow gun tub mounting quad 40mm Bofors. Dad said she was always easy to spot among "murderer's row" at Ulithi anchorage.
                  ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                  IN MARE IN COELO

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No, didn't notice that but now you point it out ... yeah!
                    I'm still very much focused on finishing the last 10 of the 32 polls for Round 1.
                    After they are all up and running, I should be able to relax a bit more ... and notice things like this.
                    (That's my weak excuse but I'm going to stick with it.)
                    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
                    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

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                    • #11
                      This is a close match. The two classes are very similar. They have equal firepower all around, same speed, and roughly the same armor. The only big advantage I see is the N. Carolina class has superior torpedo defense protection still using the multiple bulkhead system of previous designs giving it a much deeper and more resilient system.

                      Very slim victory to the N. Carolina.

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                      • #12
                        The USA certainly produced some fine-looking battleships.
                        "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                        Samuel Johnson.

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