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T2, R5, Prng 92: Dutch Great Ship 1601-1700 vs British Ship of the Line 1701-1800

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  • T2, R5, Prng 92: Dutch Great Ship 1601-1700 vs British Ship of the Line 1701-1800


    In your opinion, which of these two warship types was most significant, influential and/or effective?
    Feel free to apply those criteria as you please, along with any others you think appropriate.
    Note: Suggestions for some additional criteria are at the foot of this post.

    According to the criteria as you see and apply them, please vote for your preferred candidate in the attached poll.
    If your chosen criteria are significantly different from those suggested, telling us what they are and why you used them would be helpful.






    50: Dutch Great Ship / early Ship of the Line 1601-1700



    During the 17th Century, the Dutch were very much a naval force to be reckoned with and they gave the English - along with one or two other leading European maritime rivals - a damned good run for their money.
    Eventually, the English (later, the British) would prevail; but during this period and in particular in the Anglo-Dutch wars, the Dutch - despite some strong English victories - dealt them more than one "bloody nose" and at least one very severe humiliation along the way.
    (This humiliation was the very bold Dutch raid on the Medway in 1667, which I have already covered in pairing #34.)
    In short, the Anglo-Dutch wars of 1652-1674 were most certainly very far from being a one-sided affair.

    Below, we can see the Dutch great ship Gouda (1665, 72 guns) taking the surrender of the English great ship Royal Prince (92 guns) at the Four Days Battle 1666, during the 2nd Anglo-Dutch War, 1665-1667.
    This battle is still one of the longest engagements in the history of naval warfare and was a Dutch victory.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days%27_Battle

    In a straight-out slugging match, one-on-one and broadside-to-broadside, Gouda could not have reasonably expected to prevail against the larger and more heavily armed Royal Prince.
    However, a decisive factor in this particular match was the fact that the English ship had become stuck on a sand bar and was therefore effectively immobilized.
    (Two other English ships - Royal Charles and Royal Katherine - had also become stuck but managed to free themselves. Royal Prince was not so lucky.)
    Given the near hopelessness of their situation and with the Dutch ships already winning the battle and therefore in control of the waters around them, the English crew aboard Royal Prince had little option but to surrender.

    Gouda is to the left and obviously somewhat the smaller of the two ships.

    image_78489.jpg



    Closer view of Gouda offering a better view of her firepower assets.
    Gouda mounted her 72 guns across 2 full gun decks, plus a partial third; one full deck less than Royal Prince.
    Medium-to-large sized Dutch warships tended in general to have less draft than their English equivalents; a necessary measure for their relatively shallow home coastal and estuary waters.
    To maintain the required flotation for a given size of ship, less draft was generally compensated with a somewhat broader beam, meaning that Dutch warships would often have a greater "beam to length" ratio.
    As such, and being smaller overall, Gouda was not as heavily armed but had better maneuverability than the English adversary she was dealing with (and might otherwise have had to face in maneuvering condition) here.

    image_78488.jpg



    Close-up view of Royal Prince's stern showing Dutch crew members accepting her surrender. She started her career as the 55-gun "Prince Royal", having been launched in 1610.
    Between then and her capture she had a number of rebuilds and upgrades, changing her name to "Resolution" during the Commonwealth under Oliver Cromwell; then to Royal Prince with Charles II's ascent to the throne upon the Restoration of 1660.

    image_78487.jpg




    61: British Ship of the Line 1701-1800



    Our first British example is HMS Yarmouth, launched in 1745.
    Yarmouth was a 64-gun 3rd-rate ship of the line, with two full gun decks. She displaced about 1,300 tons and had a crew of 480 officers and men. Yarmouth carried 26 x 32pdr guns on her lower deck and 26 x 18pdr on her upper. The additional armament was 9pdr guns on her forecastle and quarterdeck.

    Yarmouth had a successful career spanning more than 60 years; fighting in numerous wars and battles. Her many distinctions include honours and awards in the Second Battle of Cape Finisterre, 1747; the Seven Years' War, 1756-63; the American Revolutionary War, 1775-83 and the Battle of the Saintes, 1782.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Yarmouth_(1745)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...isterre_(1747)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years%27_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...olutionary_War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Saintes

    One of Yarmouth's more notable actions was against the American frigate USS Randolph (36 guns) and some smaller American warships, during the American Revolutionary War.
    In February 1778, Randolph - commanded by Captain Nicholas Biddle and accompanied by four smaller American armed ships - was under orders to break the British blockade of Charleston, South Carolina. However, upon sailing out to meet the enemy, no British ships were in sight at that time; so they set sail for the West Indies to raid British commerce. Through late February and into early March, they attacked and overcame a small number of British vessels.
    Things came to a head when lookouts spotted a large warship near Barbados. One account states that Biddle correctly identified the size and type before it came within fighting range; being a ship of the line and an enemy vessel. It was HMS Yarmouth (a 2-decker of 64 guns), commanded by Captain Nicholas Vincent. Another account has Biddle unsure of the exact type of ship until it was close enough to engage. Given that the engagement itself occurred after dark, this seems quite possible.
    In either case, Biddle decided to keep the strongest of the smaller American warships - the 20-gun General Moultrie - with him for much needed support and ordered the others to make good their escape.

    Following some initial maneuvers, the two American ships raised their flags at about 9:00pm and opened fire on Yarmouth. The British ship returned fire and both sides engaged intensively for about 20 minutes. In this initial exchange, Biddle was wounded but continued with the fight. (It is thought that the gunfire he was wounded by actually came from a mistaken volley fired by the General Moultrie.) Randolph in particular, had engaged Yarmouth more closely; and for a while at least the Americans seemed to be holding their own against the British ship, which had also sustained some significant damage.
    However, soon there was an unexpected titanic explosion aboard Randolph, thought to have been sparked in her powder magazine. This effectively ended the fight and the General Moultrie made good her escape. Yarmouth attempted pursuit but due to her extensive damages - much of which had been caused by falling debris from the exploding Randolph - she had to abandon the chase.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Randolph_(1776)


    Yarmouth (left) vs Randolph, March 1778, near Barbados

    SoL Yarmouth 1745 vs Randolph p22-23 onv161.jpg



    Our second British example is HMS Bellona, launched in 1760.
    Bellona had a crew of 650 officers and men. She displaced about 1,600 tons and was also a 2-decker, rated for a nominal 74 guns. The usual distribution of her armament was:
    • Lower gundeck - 28 x 32pdr
    • Upper gundeck - 28 x 18pdr
    • Forecastle - 4 x 9pdr
    • Quarterdeck - 14 x 9pdr
    Bellona was effectively a "prototype" for what was to become a very standard and classic British 74-gun 3rd rate ship of the line. With minor variations, more than 40 examples of this basic design were built.
    Bellona saw good service, with some breaks, over a period or more than 50 years until 1814, when she was finally broken up.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bellona_(1760)


    The "brand new" Bellona, performing blockade duty off Brest, April 1760 during the Seven Years' War
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years%27_War

    SoL Bellona 1760 blockade duty off Brest by Geoff Hunt.jpg



    For our third British ship of the line, we have HMS Barfleur, launched in 1768. Barfleur was a full 3-decker 2nd-rate of 90 guns nominal. This was usually 98 guns in practice. She displaced about 1,900 tons and had a crew of 750 officers and men. A typical armament composition with 98 guns was:
    • Lower gundeck - 28 x 32pdr
    • Middle gundeck - 30 x 18pdr
    • Upper gundeck - 30 x 12pdr
    • Forecastle - 2 x 9pdr
    • Quarterdeck - 8 x 12 pdr
    Barfleur had a very distinguished career through to the end of the Napoleonic wars in 1815, spending her last few years "in ordinary" until being broken up in 1819. Her service included action in the following:
    Battle of the Chesapeake; Battle of St. Kitts; Battle of the Saintes; Battle of the Mona Passage; Glorious First of June; Battle of Groix; Battle of Cape St Vincent and Battle of Cape Finisterre.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Barfleur_(1768)


    Barfleur at the Battle of the Saintes, 1782, off Dominica in the West Indies.
    This painting shows the surrender of the French flagship Ville de Paris and with it, the final capituation of what was left of the French fleet.
    Ville de Paris is close to the right, with Barfleur to her left.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Saintes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...de_Paris_(1764)

    SoL Barfleur 1768 batt Saintes 1782 surrender Ville de Paris v2.jpg







    So, now we have it! The final showdown for our ships of the line!
    Which candidate do you favor? The early Dutch examples of the 1600's or the British variants of the 1700's?
    Only one of them will make to the Final!


    Suggested additional criteria you might wish to consider, along with any others you deem appropriate.
    (Note: Some of these could be considered already covered by Significant, Influential and Effective)

    Which warship type ...
    • was the best?
    • was the greatest?
    • was the most widely used?
    • had the greatest longevity in service?
    • was the most versatile?
    • represented the best value for the cost/effort invested ("bang for the buck" in today's language)?
    • was the easiest to operate?
    Any other criteria you have applied (please tell us what they were).
    11
    50 - Dutch Great Ship 1601-1700
    9.09%
    1
    61 - British Ship of the Line 1701-1800
    90.91%
    10
    Last edited by panther3485; 09 Dec 18, 07:30.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    In the global context, I think the 18th century British ships of the line were arguably more important than the 17th century Dutch great ships.
    That said, IMO the Dutch ships are very worthy to have gotten this far in the tournament and shouldn't exit the contest without getting at least one vote.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

    Comment


    • #3
      You knew it was going to come down to the Brit "ship of the line" vs. the American heavy frigate, right? Given the parameters and the pairings up to this point it was fairly inevitable.
      The Dutch "Geweldig Schip" vs. the British "Ship of the Line" comes off as a victory for the latter. Mare speed, maneuverability, better design, better sea keeping ability, longer active service (due to improved maintenance techniques) and more modern times.
      ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
      IN MARE IN COELO

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jose50 View Post
        You knew it was going to come down to the Brit "ship of the line" vs. the American heavy frigate, right? Given the parameters and the pairings up to this point it was fairly inevitable.
        The Dutch "Geweldig Schip" vs. the British "Ship of the Line" comes off as a victory for the latter. Mare speed, maneuverability, better design, better sea keeping ability, longer active service (due to improved maintenance techniques) and more modern times.
        Not a certainty but yes, it was a highly probable outcome I would think.
        Some might have predicted it from the beginning? Nevertheless, IMHO much the same might be said of all the other tournaments we've seen over recent years ... or at least, some would think so. Yes?


        However, even if the destination is presumed (and the presumption turns out to be correct), the journey itself is still the most enjoyable part, IMHO.
        We could go into our perceived reasons as to why each those two candidates were likely finalists and the precise reasons may not necessarily be the same in both cases; but that's also quite debatable / open to opinion of course.

        Anyway, I thought it best in both the warships campaigns so far, to encourage members to select and apply whatever criteria they deemed reasonable. That in itself is something of a "wild card" I believe.
        Having said all of this, I'd still be interested if anyone thinks that any of these four semi-finalists should have fallen by the wayside significantly sooner and if so, why they think so?

        Last edited by panther3485; 10 Dec 18, 01:11.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

        Comment


        • #5
          Have to go with British Ship of the Line.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

          Comment

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