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Warships Campaign Tournament 2 - Mini-Poll 1 (test)

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  • Warships Campaign Tournament 2 - Mini-Poll 1 (test)

    Candidate 68: French Great Ship / Ship of the Line 17th Century
    vs
    Candidate 50: Dutch Great Ship / Ship of the Line 17th Century





    68: FRENCH GREAT SHIP



    During the 17th century, the French were among the leading nations competing for trade and control of the seas.
    By the late 1660's, the naval forces of Spain and Portugal had declined relative to their former positions and the French now had one of the top three most powerful navies, along with the Dutch and the English.

    Despite being launched in 1669, the Soleil Royal (Royal Sun) remained in harbour and did not see any action until the Nine Years' War (1688 - 1697).
    This was a conflict fought both on land and sea, between France and its territories on one side, vs a coalition of Austria, England, the Dutch Republic, the Holy Roman Empire, Savoy and Spain on the other.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Years%27_War

    Accordingly, Soleil Royal was re-commissioned in the first year of this war, as the flagship of the Escadre du Ponant (Ponant Squadron).
    She was rated to carry up to 120 guns but usually carried between 104 and 112.
    Soleil Royal was one of the two largest and most heavily armed French ships at this time; the other being the Royal Louis.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...il_Royal_(1670)

    Soleil Royal's first action of note was at the battle of Beachy Head in 1690, when the French ships managed to surprise the English ships while they were at anchor.

    The next notable action was in 1692, when she led a 45-ship fleet against a 97-ship combined Dutch and English fleet.
    This was the Battle of Barfleur and the French pressed home their attack despite the numerical disparity.
    There were heavy losses on both sides before the French were forced to break off the engagement.
    Although Soleil Royal made it through, she was very heavily damaged and was unable to make it back to Brest.
    Therefore, she was forced to beach near Cherbourg for repairs.
    Not very long after her beaching, she was attacked by a number of enemy ships; most of which she managed to repel with gunfire but a fireship set her alight, leading to an explosion in her powder rooms and the final destruction of Soleil Royal.


    French great ship Soleil Royal (1669) in battle

    GrtShp Soleil Royal 1669 in battle.jpg



    Soleil Royal model clearly showing gun arrangement & overall layout
    She was one of the most powerful ships in the World.

    GrtShp Soleil Royal 1669 model 2 right front.jpg


    Soleil Royal model - rear quarter view showing intricate stern work.
    This was among the richest and most decorative of any ship at that time.
    As with the leading warship types of any era, they were not just formidable fighting platforms.
    They were symbols of national prestige.

    GrtShp Soleil Royal 1669 model 8 rear left.jpg





    50: DUTCH GREAT SHIP



    During the 17th Century, the Dutch were very much a naval force to be reckoned with and they gave the English - along with one or two other leading European maritime rivals - a damned good run for their money.
    Eventually, the English (later, the British) would prevail; but during this period and in particular in the Anglo-Dutch wars, the Dutch - despite some strong English victories - dealt them more than one "bloody nose" and at least one very severe humiliation along the way.
    (This humiliation was the very bold Dutch raid on the Medway in 1667, of which I shall tell more in at least one of the forthcoming T2 poll threads.)
    In short, the Anglo-Dutch wars of 1652-1674 were most certainly very far from being a one-sided affair.

    Below, we can see the Dutch great ship Gouda (1665, 72 guns) taking the surrender of the English great ship Royal Prince (92 guns) at the Four Days Battle 1666, during the 2nd Anglo-Dutch War, 1665-1667.
    This battle is still one of the longest engagements in the history of naval warfare and was a Dutch victory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days%27_Battle

    In a straight-out slugging match, one-on-one and broadside-to-broadside, Gouda could not have reasonably expected to prevail against the larger and more heavily armed Royal Prince.
    However, a decisive factor in this particular match was the fact that the English ship had become stuck on a sand bar and was therefore effectively immobilized.
    (Two other English ships - Royal Charles and Royal Katherine - had also become stuck but managed to free themselves. Royal Prince was not so lucky.)
    Given the near hopelessness of their situation and with the Dutch ships already winning the battle and therefore in control of the waters around them, the English crew aboard Royal Prince had little option but to surrender.

    Gouda is to the left and obviously somewhat the smaller of the two ships.

    GrtShp Gouda 1665 takes Surrender Royal Prince 1666 version A 1200px.jpg



    Closer view of Gouda offering a better view of her firepower assets.
    Gouda mounted her 72 guns across 2 full gun decks, plus a partial third; one full deck less than Royal Prince.
    Medium-to-large sized Dutch warships tended in general to have less draft than their English equivalents; a necessary measure for their relatively shallow home coastal and estuary waters.
    To maintain the required flotation for a given size of ship, less draft was generally compensated with a somewhat broader beam, meaning that Dutch warships would often have a greater "beam to length" ratio.
    As such, and being smaller overall, Gouda was not as heavily armed but had better maneuverability than the English adversary she was dealing with (and might otherwise have had to face in maneuvering condition) here.

    GrtShp Gouda takes Surrender of Royal Prince 1666 version B closeup of grtshp Gouda.jpg



    Close-up view of Royal Prince's stern showing Dutch crew members accepting her surrender. She started her career as the 55-gun "Prince Royal", having been launched in 1610.
    Between then and her capture she had a number of rebuilds and upgrades, changing her name to "Resolution" during the Commonwealth under Oliver Cromwell; then to Royal Prince with Charles II's ascent to the throne upon the Restoration of 1660.GrtShp Gouda 1665 surrender R Prince 1666 version D rear clodseup Prince.jpg




    So which of these two magnificent ships will get your vote?



    10
    French Great Ship / Ship of the Line 17th Century
    10.00%
    1
    Dutch Great Ship / Ship of the Line 17th Century
    90.00%
    9

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 14 Jul 18, 01:17.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    I like the Dutch design better. They were able to go where the French ship could not go, being smaller and having less draft.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
      I like the Dutch design better. They were able to go where the French ship could not go, being smaller and having less draft.

      Pruitt
      Yes; from my reading so far, it appears that the Dutch generally preferred not to build dedicated warships as large as the largest English and French vessels during this period (or even later, I think).
      In Angus Konstam's book, he speaks of the Dutch tendency to have "flatter bottoms and broader beams than their English counterparts", being "shallow drafted and drawing no more than 15 feet of water - the equivalent of an English 4th-rate". He adds that this tended also to make them more stable gun platforms. Nevertheless their main trade ships - the East Indiamen - tended to be among their largest and were also fairly well armed, as well as having very stout timber framing to be able to continually take the stresses of open ocean voyages.
      They could double as warships when needed.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        I like the Dutch design better. They were able to go where the French ship could not go, being smaller and having less draft.

        Pruitt
        Sound reasoning and I'd have to agree.
        Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
        TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
        Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *

        Comment


        • #5
          It took the Dutch and English to take down the Soleil Royal. Just saying...

          "Stand for the flag ~ Kneel for the fallen"

          "A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." ~ Bruce Lee

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Persephone View Post
            It took the Dutch and English to take down the Soleil Royal. Just saying...

            I hear ya. I think it was valiant of the French to aggressively engage a force roughly double the size of their own.
            From what I've read, even though the Soleil Royal was ultimately destroyed, the overall performance of the French squadron was pretty good considering the odds.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry to jump on so late. I thought the Dutch GOUDA (isn't that cheese?) had a much better advantage vis-a-vis draft, beam, seakeeping and maneuverability. I used to have on old wooden Luhr's sport fisherman that we'd party on that was the same way...beamy. She was 28L and almost 14.5W. Called her the 'pregnant guppy'
              ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
              IN MARE IN COELO

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes, it is a cheese.
                Edam is another Dutch cheese named after a town or city but I don't have a ship called Edam in this tournament.
                (Not sure if there was such a ship.)
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                Comment

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