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Puller vs. Manstein (Round 3)

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  • #31
    Man this is a tough one, but I had to go with Manstein
    All war is based on deception. - Sun Tzu

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
      He'll be proud. You voted with your head.

      HP
      So anybody who votes for the best General we had in the 20th century isn't using their head? What are they voting with? Their loins?

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      • #33
        My honorary grandfather will kick my ass for not voting for Chesty... But Manstein made far more advances in military thinking in a year than Chesty made in his entire career. So my vote goes again to... Erich von Manstein.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Axis of Evil View Post
          But Manstein made far more advances in military thinking in a year than Chesty made in his entire career.
          OK - Again, my 2 cents...

          I'll be the first to say that Manstein was a great commander! But come on - more advances in military thinking in a year vs. Chesty over a lifetime? You don't win wars - especially against and empire who will fight to the last man by not using "military thinking"... and OK - let's say Manstein did come up with several advances in "military thinking" - but how did he act on them? Were his thoughts acurate? I engage you - step back out of the books and see how a good field commander leads his boys into combat... Just because someone has a lot of good ideas and can think outside of the box doesn't always mean that he can lead - and win - soldiers in combat... It's usually the exact opposite!

          I will give you the fact the Manstein was a great commander... I just want to make sure you're not voting on the "smartest" guy here - but the best LEADER - not MANAGER!

          ... now, that and 1.25 will get you a cup of bad 7-11 coffee!
          CPT T
          Field Artillery
          BDE S3 - Peacemaker 3 - OIF 09
          FSO - 1BCT, 3ID - OIF III

          "Loved or Hated... Never Ignored... COLT sticks it deep!"

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          • #35
            This could maybe use some help:

            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=53768

            I'm pretty sure I know which way Chesty would vote, but feel free...
            Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
            (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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            • #36
              Originally posted by General Staff View Post
              This could maybe use some help:

              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=53768

              I'm pretty sure I know which way Chesty would vote, but feel free...
              Puller carried a copy of Freeman's books with him in the Pacific (along with Caesar's Gallic Wars and other books). His grandfather was a Confederate General and he often spoke on the valor of our people. That's a no-brainer as well.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Swampwolf View Post
                His grandfather was a Confederate General and he often spoke on the valor of our people. That's a no-brainer as well.
                Our people? I thought we all are Americans? Or are you one of those people who are still sore over losing the Civil War? Notice i used its proper name and not that moniker you Southerners insist on calling it.
                http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                NorbertSnyderJr.com

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Swampwolf View Post
                  Puller carried a copy of Freeman's books with him in the Pacific (along with Caesar's Gallic Wars and other books). His grandfather was a Confederate General and he often spoke on the valor of our people. That's a no-brainer as well.
                  If Puller was the guy I think he was, he'd also have had a copy of Caesar's 'Commentarii de Bello Civili' (Commentaries on the Civil War)- even more of a reason to feel free to vote Lincoln. Which is what I believe he would have done.

                  Maybe you should get your water checked.
                  Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                  (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by KGPanzerschrecK View Post
                    Our people? I thought we all are Americans? Or are you one of those people who are still sore over losing the Civil War? Notice i used its proper name and not that moniker you Southerners insist on calling it.
                    KG, follow the link General Staff provided and read some of the debates in that thread. All your questions will be answered. It has been quite lively and fun to read.
                    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                    • #40
                      I Agree.

                      Originally posted by revans View Post
                      Reluctantly I voted for Manstein. Puller just never commanded as many troops in battle. Not saying that he couldn't have but Manstein proved that he could and Puller didn't.


                      This should be Mannerheim.
                      Manstein worked some miracles during very adverse situations.

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                      • #41
                        I think they were evenly matched ability-wise. So, I'll go with Puller, for he showed his breed for decades.
                        History of War Podcast

                        Episode 1: Why Study Military History?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by General Staff View Post
                          If Puller was the guy I think he was, he'd also have had a copy of Caesar's 'Commentarii de Bello Civili' (Commentaries on the Civil War)- even more of a reason to feel free to vote Lincoln. Which is what I believe he would have done.

                          Maybe you should get your water checked.
                          What does studying the tactics that history has taught us - such as never turning to night without fortifying as Caesar did in Gaul, and which blunted the Japanese assaults in the Pacific - have to do with Lincolnian idolatry?

                          Puller was not shy about speaking out on behalf of our people and he was more modern in his views (and egalitarian) than the stereotypes would indicate. When he picked his bodyguards, men to be decorated, or men to promote he picked the best men, regardless of their homes. It's not something you can understand if you look through a modern lens (one that limits your own understanding).

                          Our people? I thought we all are Americans? Or are you one of those people who are still sore over losing the Civil War? Notice i used its proper name and not that moniker you Southerners insist on calling it.
                          I'm not so much angry about losing against the world's preeminant industrial power after a four year resistance by our best men (which made contemporary European Generals look simplistic) as I am the despoiling of the land and people that came afterwards and the outright hatred you people have for us. I don't think the person who hates his neighbor for the lies that he has chosen to believe is very American. So I guess not all of us are Americans.

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                          • #43
                            Actually, now that I notice it, aren't all of the anti-Marines here also pretty hardcore anti-South too? I mean I did see a lot of Confederate flags during my time in the Marine Infantry, and we did raise it over Shuri castle in the last scrap of the last battle of WW2 (after we got the Japs back for mutilating our helpless army soldiers - decorated our tanks with their damn heads!). Now we have the cheapest ass gear and the most pressure from Washington (Murtha that son of a bitch) but the enemy still shits their pants when they find out that they accidentally tried to bushwack a Marine convoy instead of an Ah-mee one. I mean I know there are different excuses for hating either us down here and an ah-mee soldier hating Marines but they are still like one inferiority complex.

                            "Being ready is not what matters. What matters is winning after you get there." (Lieutenant General Victor H. Krulak, USMC, April 1965.)



                            "You don't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em." (Lieutenant General Lewis B. Puller, USMC, 1962.)



                            "Retreat Hell! We're just attacking in another direction." (Attributed to Major General Oliver P. Smith, USMC, Korea, December 1950.)



                            "****** it, you'll never get the Purple Heart hiding in a foxhole! Follow me!" (Captain Henry P. "Jim" Crowe, USMC, Guadalcanal, 13 January 1943.)



                            "Come on, you sons of bitches-do you want to live forever?" (Attributed to Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly, USMC, Belleau Wood, June 1918.)



                            "Once a Marine, always a Marine!" (MSgt Paul Woyshner, a 40-year Marine, is credited with originating this expression during a taproom argument with a discharged Marine.)



                            "I can't say enough about the two Marine divisions. If I use words like brilliant, it would really be an under-description of the absolutely superb job they did in breaching the so-called impenetrable barrier. . .Absolutely superb operation, a textbook, and I think it'll be studied for many, many years to come as the way to do it." (General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, USA, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 27 February 1991.)



                            "I have just returned from visiting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." (General Douglas MacArthur, USA, outskirts of Seoul, 21 September 1950.)

                            "Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency; we are winning." (Colonel David M. Shoup, USMC, Tarawa, 21 November 1943.)



                            "The deadliest weapon in the world is a MARINE and his rifle!"
                            GEN. PERSHING, US.ARMY

                            "Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking!"
                            FERDINAND FOCH

                            "We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem!"
                            CHESTY PULLER, USMC

                            "The more MARINES I have around the better I like it!"
                            GEN. MARK CLARK, U.S. ARMY

                            "I want you boys to hurry up and whip these Germans so we can get out to the Pacific to kick the s**t out of the purple-pissing Japanese, before the Godda**ed MARINES get all the credit!" Lt General George Patton, US Army 1945

                            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." GEORGE ORWELL

                            "Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge-hammer!"
                            MAJ. HOLDREDGE

                            "A ship without MARINES is like a garment without buttons."
                            ADM. DAVID PORTER, USN

                            "The MARINES have landed and have the situation well in hand!"
                            RICHARD HARDING DAVIS

                            "Casualties many; Percentage of dead not known; Combat efficiency: we are winning!"
                            COL. DAVID M. SHOUP, USMC

                            "I can never again see a UNITED STATES MARINE without experiencing a feeling of reverence."
                            GEN. JOHNSON, U.S. ARMY

                            "The raising of that flag on Suribachi means a MARINE CORPS for the next 500 years."
                            JAMES FORRESTAL, SECRETARY OF THE NAVY

                            "Come on, you sons of b*****! Do you want to live forever?"
                            GySgt. DANIEL DALY, USMC



                            "We're not retreating, Hell! We're just attacking in a different direction!"
                            GEN. OLIVER SMITH, USMC



                            "I have just returned from visiting the MARINES at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!"
                            GEN. DOUGLAS MACARTHUR, U.S. ARMY



                            "Teufelhunde! (Devil Dogs)"
                            GERMAN SOLDIERS, WW1 at BELLEAU WOOD



                            "So they've got us surrounded, good! Now we can fire in any direction, those b*****ds won't get away this time!"
                            CHESTY PULLER, USMC



                            "We have two companies of MARINES running all over this island and thousands of ARMY troops doing nothing!"
                            GEN. JOHN VESSEY, CHAIRMAN OF JOINT CHIEFS



                            "Retreat hell! We just got here!"
                            CAPT. LLOYD WILLIAMS, USMC



                            "The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of MARINES. LORD, how they could fight!"
                            MAJ. GEN. FRANK LOWE, U.S. ARMY

                            "Panic sweeps my men when they are facing the AMERICAN MARINES."
                            CAPTURED NORTH KOREAN MAJOR



                            "Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldier will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"
                            LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC



                            "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
                            PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985




                            "There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion." Unknown

                            "For those who fight for it, life has a special flavor the protected (will) never know." Inscribed on a “C” ration box by an unknown Marine at Khe Sahn

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                            • #44
                              "Chesty" is the most fought over General of this Tournament, he deserves some sort of award. I will have Puller as my Avatar in protest until he gets what he deserves....
                              "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                              BoRG

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                              • #45
                                I know what it is: the pogues like Manstein because his uniform was always nice and tidy like theirs.

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