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Joan of Arc vs Agrippa (Round 2)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by daemonofdecay
    Even if it wasn't her military prowess, her role as a figurehead and her inspirational role was as critical to the french victories as the rest of the Generals, and therefor she gets my vote.
    But that is just it,...if one looks at the period within the Hundred's Year War when Joan did her thing her reputation does not stand up to the facts (reality). In brief, the English were exhausted, over-stretched and under funded. Unknownst to the people of the time, the tide had already shifted and English power was ebbing fast, Joan was there mainly as a figurehead but if she had not arrived the English would still have been defeated and then driven back bit by bit to Calais.
    The Purist

    Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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    • #17
      Saying this in light of the:
      Treaty of Troyes, where the English were guaranteed succession?
      Cautious French generals who launched only 2 major counter-attacks against the English to break the siege of Orleans?
      Failure of the French to win a major field battle in the past 10-something years?

      The 'tide' was still for the English. They were guaranteed the French crown, just as long as the English King grew to age. While the English were stretched, it doesn't mean they were about to lose.

      Joan of Arc brought the French back to their feet, and brought them victory.
      For despite the silly sayings about violence never settling anything, history IS changed on the battlefield: ask the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
      -Jerry Pournelle-
      Introduction to 'Hammer's Slammers'

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      • #18
        Toughey again for me, but I am going with Joan, kept France from vacating the history books
        All war is based on deception. - Sun Tzu

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        • #19
          Joan because I am somewhat a Francophile and because the death of a Republic and birth of an Empire is not a good thing.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Swampwolf View Post
            Joan because I am somewhat a Francophile and because the death of a Republic and birth of an Empire is not a good thing.
            France was not a republic in the c15th - it wasan't one until the French revolution in 1789 when it became a military dicatorship.

            In fact France between the end of the 100 years war and 1789 was one of the most autocratic monarchies in Europe.

            In fact one of the prime causes of the 100 years war was a particularly sexist interpretation of the rules of inheritance by the French. The legitimate heir to the French throne was the English king. The English were just trying to stop the French usurpers and protect their legitimate rights.
            "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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            • #21
              I meant the Roman Republic. Octavian set the course for Imperial rule that could have been avoided somehow. I'm not a fan of many Roman Emperors but I admire the Republic that preceded it.

              I'm not that ignorant to confuse the Medieval period so much.

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              • #22
                I voted for the Maid of Orleans last round, but she doesnt stack up against Agrippa.
                http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...200pixwide.jpg

                Kampfgruppe - A Wargaming Clan Since 1998

                NorbertSnyderJr.com

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Marshal Murat View Post
                  Better all around?

                  She became a saint! How can you improve on that.
                  So what, she became a saint ???
                  Have you seen the nimwits that have been called saints during the centuries ???
                  ...and what for nimwits have the power to proclaim nimwits as saints !!!
                  That ain't no good arguement in my opinion !!!



                  Greets,
                  Stratego
                  Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily.- Napoleon

                  It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation.- Herman Melville

                  Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

                  BORG

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Marshal Murat View Post
                    Better all around?

                    She became a saint! How can you improve on that.
                    Saints are good to help boost the moral, but as far as I know only St. George and St. James would apear on the battleground to help one side. So Jean is ruled out on my "military" saints. Sorry, no cake for the lady this time.
                    All warfare is based on deception.
                    Sun Tzu - Art of war - Chapter One - Laying Plans


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                    • #25
                      The voices in my head say....
                      Agrippa
                      Battles are dangerous affairs... Wang Hsi

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                      • #26
                        Agrippa. To be on the safe side, I try and avoid religious zealots. Nasty tendency to get you in trouble or even torched.
                        Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                        (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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                        • #27
                          I vote for Jeanne d'Arc because of her undoubted natural talent as a leader.

                          Inspiring your troops to fight and win against the odds is the esence of military tactics.

                          If this young girl had been given the chance to command the forces at the command of Agrippa she would have outpassed him.
                          http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Wolfe Tone View Post
                            I vote for Jeanne d'Arc because of her undoubted natural talent as a leader.

                            Inspiring your troops to fight and win against the odds is the esence of military tactics.

                            If this young girl had been given the chance to command the forces at the command of Agrippa she would have outpassed him.
                            I think that's doubtful. Did she campaign outside her own playground so to speak? Did she fight across oceans and coordinate naval campaigns to go along with numerous land campaigns all over the Med? Maybe she could have, maybe she couldn't have, the fact is Agrippa did.
                            Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by revans View Post
                              I think that's doubtful. Did she campaign outside her own playground so to speak? Did she fight across oceans and coordinate naval campaigns to go along with numerous land campaigns all over the Med? Maybe she could have, maybe she couldn't have, the fact is Agrippa did.
                              Agrippa was a different kettle of fish -an excellent organizer of men and logistics and a solid man in battle.

                              Jeanne was an inspirational leader more than anything else. She would be more like an Alexander than an Octavian or an Agrippa.

                              Did Agrippa inspire the same devotion from his men as she did from hers?

                              IMO he would not have.
                              http://www.irelandinhistory.blogspot.ie/

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Wolfe Tone View Post
                                Did Agrippa inspire the same devotion from his men as she did from hers?
                                Maybe it's a question of facing decimation in a unit of Agrippa's for a lack of zeal versus a potential torching by the enemy for a loss in Joan's ranks. At least with Agrippa your fate was more in your own hands.

                                Alternatively he (almost or always?) won, whereas her record was a little erratic and ultimately terminal.
                                Tactics are based on Weapons... Strategy on Movement... and Movement on Supply.
                                (J. F. C. Fuller 1878-1966)

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