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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
    The Panther beats them all hands down.
    OMG!
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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    • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
      My work is done .

      John

      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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      • Originally posted by JBark View Post
        OMG!
        Yup, no one can beat German engineering. And I haven't been sucked into the T-34 myth.

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        • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
          I noticed your handle.
          It has always been my favourite WW2 German tank.
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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          • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
            It has always been my favourite WW2 German tank.
            Influenced more post war designers than the T-34.

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            • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
              Yup, no one can beat German engineering. And I haven't been sucked into the T-34 myth.
              Yeah, nothing like sending a crew in to combat blind. FINE engineering!
              John

              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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              • Originally posted by JBark View Post
                Yeah, nothing like sending a crew in to combat blind. FINE engineering!
                Ever been in one?

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                • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                  Influenced more post war designers than the T-34.
                  For overall tank design concepts as used by Western nations, perhaps ... but ... not forgetting, of course, that the design and very creation of the Panther was itself significantly influenced by the T-34; indeed, the Panther as we know it would not have started on the drawing-board had it not been for the T-34. So the opposition could say, that the T-34 was the tank that influenced the tank that influenced the other tanks you're thinking of!

                  On the other hand though, if you were so inclined, you could counter-argue that the Panther did the whole thing better than the T-34 did (albeit at a much higher cost and heavier weight). Too bad for the Germans that it had serious mechancial issues (but lucky for the Allies).
                  Last edited by panther3485; 18 Sep 14, 21:30.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                  • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                    Ever been in one?
                    No, like the overwhelming majority of the folk here I have not. Why do you ask?
                    John

                    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                    • Originally posted by JBark View Post
                      No, like the overwhelming majority of the folk here I have not. Why do you ask?
                      Had you, you'd know better.

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                      • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                        Influenced more post war designers than the T-34.
                        Few of the aspects of it's design did become common in post war designs, and some particular features, such as overlapping road wheels, were never used in post war production vehicles except for a few experimental or limited series French vehicles. Therefore, while impressive for it's power and size, much so like Tiger and Tiger B, it was not so much the forebears of post war tank design but more of dead end on the evolutionary tank design tree which started with Panzer III.
                        It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                        Косово је Србија!
                        Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                        Armored Brigade

                        Armored Brigade Facebook page

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                        • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                          Had you, you'd know better.
                          Crew in general was not blind: according the French (who used Panther in post war period) commander's cupola with its 7 periscopes provides a nearly perfect all-round visibility. Soviets report says too that commander and driver had good, radio-operator satisfactory, while gunner and loader had poor visibility.

                          Issue with Panther was that gunner, aside from his gun sight, has no other type of observation device. He was therefore practically blind, one of the greatest drawbacks of the Panther, being completely dependent on the tank commander to acquire and bear to the target. This apparently made target acquisition a good deal slower in the Panther than in a tank with more vision devices for the gunner. French report gives 20 and 30 seconds before the gunner can open fire. According to them, it is significantly greater than that of the Sherman, and stems from the absence of a periscope for the gunner.

                          According to the Soviet wartime report, the Panther had no longer a large amount of observation devices like on the Panzer III and Panzer IV, in order to increase protection. The Panther was rated equivalent to the IS-122 in observation quality (indeed they have almost the same number of observation devices) and certainly inferior to the Panzer III and Panzer IV, which were rated very high.
                          It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                          Косово је Србија!
                          Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                          Armored Brigade

                          Armored Brigade Facebook page

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                          • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                            Yup, no one can beat German engineering. And I haven't been sucked into the T-34 myth.
                            I own a fine example of German engineering. It has dumped more oil than the Exxon Valdez. I've nicknamed it Hitlerjugend, it's such a nasty piece of work.

                            So, was the M4 a cavalry tank or an artillery tank?

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                            • Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                              I own a fine example of German engineering. It has dumped more oil than the Exxon Valdez. I've nicknamed it Hitlerjugend, it's such a nasty piece of work.

                              So, was the M4 a cavalry tank or an artillery tank?
                              Comrade, buy Ruskie.



                              http://www.englishrussia.com/images/cool_cars/3.jpg
                              Last edited by 101combatvet; 19 Sep 14, 09:45.

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                              • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                                Had you, you'd know better.
                                What would I know better? That a tank with a crew blind to the field of combat is a good thing? That an engine that overheats after 30 minutes is good engineering? That a fragile final drive is not important?
                                I may have never been inside the tank but I have seen MANY pictures of broken down Panthers which their crews abandoned. I'm not formally educated in military science but I do know that when tanks break down and are no longer part of the war it subtracts from a units combat effectiveness.
                                This should be obvious. I think you should know better.
                                John

                                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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