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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • Originally posted by flash View Post
    Ok,all very reasoned and valid points DogDodger.
    How about this solution to our little quandary?

    Upon introduction the Centurion was a Cruiser tank because we still used the Churchill and the Cromwell up until the early 50s,neither tank was needed after that so for a brief while the Centurion was the only tank in British service,that is until 1955 when the Conqueror was introduced at a scale of 9 per Regiment and solely to provide long range anti tank cover for the more lightly armed Centurion.
    My reasoning is that the Conqueror was designed specifically to kill Sov heavies,almost a TD in fact.
    Once Cent Mk5s started to be fitted with the L7 105mm in 1959 the Conqueror became superfluous,it was still there for a short while but not needed.
    Thanks. In July 1955, Centurion was redesignated as a medium gun tank. 1959 was when the 105 mm upgunning program started, but the Conqueror's retirement wasn't initiated until 1966. One might think that if the L7-armed Centurions played a major part in the disposal of the British heavy tank that it would have taken less than seven years (a short time?) post-upgrade?

    Perhaps we can agree that the Centurion wasn't always an MBT in British service but was in many other nations OOB.
    That's probably fair. It wasn't intended as a universal or main battle tank, but it has been used in that role at points in its history. Of course, that goes for many other tanks and vehicles as well, especially postwar with the proliferation of tank exportation and relatively small number of countries who could afford to buy and use heavy tanks. Once a product is out in the world, its designers' intentions don't matter. Just ask American World War II tank destroyer crewmen or M551 crews in Vietnam...

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    • Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
      Thanks. In July 1955, Centurion was redesignated as a medium gun tank. 1959 was when the 105 mm upgunning program started, but the Conqueror's retirement wasn't initiated until 1966. One might think that if the L7-armed Centurions played a major part in the disposal of the British heavy tank that it would have taken less than seven years (a short time?) post-upgrade?


      That's probably fair. It wasn't intended as a universal or main battle tank, but it has been used in that role at points in its history. Of course, that goes for many other tanks and vehicles as well, especially postwar with the proliferation of tank exportation and relatively small number of countries who could afford to buy and use heavy tanks. Once a product is out in the world, its designers' intentions don't matter. Just ask American World War II tank destroyer crewmen or M551 crews in Vietnam...
      I completely disagree .

      A Universal Tank is a British term that means a tank that can perform both cruiser and infantry tank roles. The fact that post WW2, the Churchill was a dead end and the Centurion was given a green light for production speaks volumes.

      From the King Arthur thread, I've learnt to trust the archaeologists over the historians. You need to judge what really happened to what was said to have happened.

      The British never again produced an infantry tank. They simply produced a Universal tank (sometimes with a glorified tank derstroyer).

      The Centurion was the first Universal tank, simply because the British decided in one direction of their tank design, and as important, actual production of the infantry design stopped.
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      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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      • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
        I completely disagree .
        Nothing wrong with that.

        A Universal Tank is a British term that means a tank that can perform both cruiser and infantry tank roles.
        Sure. The British didn't really try this until immediately after the war, however, when they tried to replace the Centurion with...the A45 universal tank. That project failed, so the Centurion stuck around, survived another replacement program, served with a heavy tank, and was finally replaced by Chieftain, at which time British medium (and cruiser and infantry, for the sake of this discussion) and heavy tank types were finally dispensed with.

        The British never again produced an infantry tank. They simply produced a Universal tank (sometimes with a glorified tank derstroyer).

        The Centurion was the first Universal tank, simply because the British decided in one direction of their tank design, and as important, actual production of the infantry design stopped.
        They did produce a universal tank. But, as Fletcher and Griffin agree, the first was Chieftain, not Centurion. Design work on infantry tanks continued concurrently with work on the Centurion. I'd posit that the British stopped infantry tank production while making the Centurion simply because Centurion was their newest and most powerful vehicle at the end of the war. With the end of hostilities, purse-tightening took on grave importance. They immediately tried to replace the Centurion, though, but like the M60 with MBT70 and XM803, the Centurion weathered several replacement programs until its successor finally entered service in 1966, two decades after the Centurion came into being. Not that the Centurion was a bad design, but its long career is also related to the failure of its replacements to get off the drawing board, leaving the British tankers to keep on keeping on.

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        • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
          " ... perhaps this poll should be dumped into the Politics forum ."
          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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          • I must be a dolt. Your explanation seems to me to be a repetition of what you've already said. Sooo...

            Where is the nationalism here?

            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
            In every case of those who chose the British Centurion over the Soviet T-55 last time...
            That connects to your perceived nationalism here.

            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
            ... and then chose the USA Sherman over the British Centurion this time have USA flags under their name.


            Can I claim that nationalism has biased your voting as well since you are voting for the Centurion in the last round as well as this?
            John

            Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

            Comment


            • Thanks Nick.

              Chirp, chirp.
              My worst jump story:
              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
              No lie.

              ~
              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JBark View Post
                I must be a dolt. Your explanation seems to me to be a repetition of what you've already said. Sooo...

                Where is the nationalism here?
                I'm obviously crediting you with more IQ than you actually have .

                Let me explain it in small words .
                We have a block vote of USA posters who vote against the Soviets in one poll. We then have the same block of USA posters who vote for the USA option in the next poll. This is regardless that the strengths of the T-55/M4 against the Centurion are basically the same. If you voted Centurion last time, you should be voting Centurion this time. Likewise if you voted T-55 last time you should be voting M4 this time.

                Originally posted by JBark View Post
                That connects to your perceived nationalism here.
                That could have been the case except for one major flaw in your opinion. I have voted on the criteria of the poll as shown by voting against what I consider the best tank of WW2, ie the Churchill, against what many perceive to be the best tank of WW2, the Tiger. I can argue extremely easily why the Churchill is better than the Tiger on almost every single element, but that's not this poll.

                Originally posted by JBark View Post
                Can I claim that nationalism has biased your voting as well since you are voting for the Centurion in the last round as well as this?
                Read the above. Since I voted Tiger over Churchill earlier, that removes any doubt over whether I have a national bias. I'm taking this poll seriously, which many here are not.

                It should be noted that a few voted against the Centurion last time, and for the Centurion this time. They are few enough not to make a difference, but I don't understand their logic either.

                It's like a poster saying they prefer the Sherman over the Churchill, and then saying they prefer the P-47 over the Mustang. Makes no sense.
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                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                • I would vote the Churchill over the T-34 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
                  My worst jump story:
                  My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                  As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                  No lie.

                  ~
                  "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                  -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                    I would vote the Churchill over the T-34 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
                    Limey lover!
                    John

                    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      I'm obviously crediting you with more IQ than you actually have .
                      Try not to do that again.

                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      Let me explain it in small words .
                      We have a block vote of USA posters who vote against the Soviets in one poll. We then have the same block of USA posters who vote for the USA option in the next poll. This is regardless that the strengths of the T-55/M4 against the Centurion are basically the same. If you voted Centurion last time, you should be voting Centurion this time. Likewise if you voted T-55 last time you should be voting M4 this time.
                      In wanting you to clarify it (in those smaller words, thank you very much) I wanted to be sure you were believing that anti Soviet/pro British was then becoming anti British/pro USA. I myself try to always vote anti British. I would also wonder why Leo II made it past the Challenger.

                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      That could have been the case except for one major flaw in your opinion.
                      Question. My last post posed questions.

                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      I have voted on the criteria of the poll as shown by voting against what I consider the best tank of WW2, ie the Churchill, against what many perceive to be the best tank of WW2, the Tiger. I can argue extremely easily why the Churchill is better than the Tiger on almost every single element, but that's not this poll.
                      Best to remember that the criteria you use may not be the criteria I use. We are permitted to use any criteria we choose as in "...if you wish you can simply vote for a tank because you like it"

                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      Read the above. Since I voted Tiger over Churchill earlier, that removes any doubt over whether I have a national bias. I'm taking this poll seriously, which many here are not.
                      I believe this was a smokescreen, and a clever one at that, to throw us all off. A sacrifice that would make Richard Jones proud...Churchill is out but you slip the Centurion in. Well done you.

                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      It's like a poster saying they prefer the Sherman over the Churchill, and then saying they prefer the P-47 over the Mustang. Makes no sense.
                      That gives me a headache.
                      Last edited by JBark; 18 Sep 14, 09:49.
                      John

                      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JBark View Post
                        " ... Best to remember that the criteria you use may not be the criteria I use. We are permitted to use any criteria we choose as in "...if you wish you can simply vote for a tank because you like it" ...
                        Yep, I did say that. After offering a list of suggested criteria for everyone to consider, of course.

                        Naturally, I was hoping that members would choose to make efforts to apply some reasonable criteria, in an intelligent manner, because they would see that as the appropriate approach; rather than simply voting for a tank because they like it.
                        From what I can see, most members did indeed make at least some reasonable attempt to do the former rather than the latter and for that I am happy.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          Try not to do that again.

                          Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          In wanting you to clarify it (in those smaller words, thank you very much) I wanted to be sure you were believing that anti Soviet/pro British was then becoming anti British/pro USA. I myself try to always vote anti British. I would also wonder why Leo II made it past the Challenger.
                          I voted Leo 2 in that poll, because this is not a best tank thread.

                          Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          Best to remember that the criteria you use may not be the criteria I use. We are permitted to use any criteria we choose as in "...if you wish you can simply vote for a tank because you like it"
                          True, but when you have the same block vote changing outcomes, it is worth asking for their motive.

                          Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          I believe this was a smokescreen, and a clever one at that, to throw us all off. A sacrifice that would make Richard Jones proud...Churchill is out but you slip the Centurion in. Well done you.
                          You've seen through my cunning plan !

                          Actually I voted against the Churchill because the infantry tank was a dead end before the heavy tank, and because of the influence the Tiger still portrays today. Because of the myth of German armour superiority in WW2, the whole of the Western World expects their tanks to be better than the opposition on hard factors.

                          Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          That gives me a headache.
                          My work is done .

                          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JBark View Post
                            Limey lover!
                            The Panther beats them all hands down.
                            My worst jump story:
                            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                            No lie.

                            ~
                            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                              The Panther beats them all hands down.
                              At least you voted for it back in Round 1, so you're putting your money where your mou ...
                              ... I mean, putting your votes where your typing fingers are!
                              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                                At least you voted for it back in Round 1, so you're putting your money where your mou ...
                                ... I mean, putting your votes where your typing fingers are!
                                I noticed your handle.
                                My worst jump story:
                                My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                                As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                                No lie.

                                ~
                                "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                                -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                                Comment

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