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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • #76
    Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
    Nick corrected me in the past when I didn't realize it was desirable to leave thank-you visitor messages for reputation received (this is the only forum in which I participate where reputation blips are taken to heart, and I appreciated the advice), but I was unable to do that for the last one I received from him.
    I think it's nice when somebody thanks me for giving them rep, but I don't consider it a necessity by any means. Many are the times I have repped somebody because I thought they posted well and received neither thanks, nor rep in return, nor any kind of communication or response. I really don't concern myself about that. Neither do I routinely thank those who rep me (apologies if I have offended anyone there).

    Having said that, if somebody does rep me then I'll look out for something of merit to rep them back for, some time down the track. It may be later rather than sooner but so long as I don't forget, they'll get a pip eventually when I see something of merit. If they don't, it's because I really have forgotten (so again please, no offence intended).
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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    • #77
      I like to send thank yous to those that can get VMs. But some times I forget if I have thanked a reper or not.
      you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

      CPO Mzinyati

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      • #78
        I find it odd that many people who voted in the last round for the Centurion are voting against it now?

        Last round, its opponent was the T-55, the most massed produced tank in history. It was an okay tank, reliable with average ability, but otherwise only remarkable for numbers fielded and armies served with. The same attributes apply to the Sherman. Some regular posters in the tank section in WW2, who voted M4 here, such as JBark and DogDodger, did vote T-55. As such, I might not agree with their criteria, but they are acting consistently, and therefore with integrity . The others may want to reply why they voted Centurion last time and M4 this round?
        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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        • #79
          You will find those same people voted for the M1.
          you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

          CPO Mzinyati

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
            Last round, its opponent was the T-55, the most massed produced tank in history. It was an okay tank, reliable with average ability, but otherwise only remarkable for numbers fielded and armies served with. The same attributes apply to the Sherman. Some regular posters in the tank section in WW2, who voted M4 here, such as JBark and DogDodger, did vote T-55. As such, I might not agree with their criteria, but they are acting consistently, and therefore with integrity . The others may want to reply why they voted Centurion last time and M4 this round?
            Appreciated. I'd find it interesting to hear that justification as well. T-54/55 has certainly seen its share of combat, although perhaps since it wasn't during World War II they view it as not as relevant somehow?

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            • #81
              Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
              Appreciated. I'd find it interesting to hear that justification as well. T-54/55 has certainly seen its share of combat, although perhaps since it wasn't during World War II they view it as not as relevant somehow?
              While I might not like my viewpoints being contested, they certainly make me think, and that is a good thing .

              The fact you voted T-55 last round underpins what you think is influential/significant in a tank. The M4 is an extension of that opinion. I can admire that opinion, even if I don't agree with it .

              What I don't admire are those that should vote with more IQ and less Nationalism.
              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                What I don't admire are those that should vote with more IQ and less Nationalism.
                And those who make plain wrong statements or repeat myths, and when you point them out that they are wrong, they simply call you a "fan-boy". Oh, what a hypocrisy.
                It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                Косово је Србија!
                Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                Armored Brigade

                Armored Brigade Facebook page

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                  I find it odd that many people who voted in the last round for the Centurion are voting against it now?

                  Last round, its opponent was the T-55, the most massed produced tank in history. It was an okay tank, reliable with average ability, but otherwise only remarkable for numbers fielded and armies served with. The same attributes apply to the Sherman. Some regular posters in the tank section in WW2, who voted M4 here, such as JBark and DogDodger, did vote T-55. As such, I might not agree with their criteria, but they are acting consistently, and therefore with integrity . The others may want to reply why they voted Centurion last time and M4 this round?
                  I suppose that's just the way it goes. I voted against the Centurion in both polls yet I'm a great admirer of this particular tank, having worked with it. Objectivity is the goal.
                  "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                  Samuel Johnson.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                    I find it odd that many people who voted in the last round for the Centurion are voting against it now?

                    Last round, its opponent was the T-55, the most massed produced tank in history. It was an okay tank, reliable with average ability, but otherwise only remarkable for numbers fielded and armies served with. The same attributes apply to the Sherman. Some regular posters in the tank section in WW2, who voted M4 here, such as JBark and DogDodger, did vote T-55. As such, I might not agree with their criteria, but they are acting consistently, and therefore with integrity . The others may want to reply why they voted Centurion last time and M4 this round?
                    Thank you for that and for putting me in such esteemed company.
                    John

                    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                    • #85
                      Sour grapes, should never have pitted the two together until the final outcome.
                      My worst jump story:
                      My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                      As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                      No lie.

                      ~
                      "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                      -2 Commando Jumpmaster

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                        Sour grapes, should never have pitted the two together until the final outcome.
                        Sherman vs Centurion in Round 6 (the final)? An extremely unlikely scenario IMO, regardless of how the pairings were matched along the way. I'd be a bit surprised if one of them made the final and totally surprised if they both did.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          The M4 was omnipotent during WW2 but I don't believe that is due to it being a good tank, in 1942 it could hold its own with any axis tank and was a much needed tonic to hard pressed allied Tankies in the desert.
                          Unfortunately it didn't move with the times and come 1944 the enemy had deployed their next generation of tanks and Atk guns.
                          It remained in service in vast numbers with many countries post war but was that due only to availability I wonder?
                          The Israelis bought up excess stock from any seller,I'm sure they would have opted for new kit such as M26 and Centurion but this option wasn't open to them so they persevered and made a pretty good fist of the M4,eventually coming up with the M51 which was similar to the M4 only in shape and suspension,how much of this was due to the constant threat of annihilation from her neighbours is open to speculation.
                          Israel did at the first opportunity start importing newer and better AFVs from the West thus giving the lie to the theory that the M4 in its various guises was considered to be good enough by the Israeli armoured forces.

                          Funnily enough,one of the Western tanks imported by the Israelis to replace the M4 was the Centurion and once provided with a diesel drivetrain became a war winner for them.

                          I don't subscribe to the view that because the British deployed a heavy tank to fight alongside the Centurion that that somehow relegates it to a lesser role.The Conqueror was designed to stop the V heavy Sov tanks such as the T10m, a role that would soon be performed by Atk missiles.
                          The 20 pdr gun of the early 50s Centurion was superbly accurate and hard hitting but it was feared that it would not penetrate the frontal arc of the latest Sov monsters, as soon as the 105mm entered service the 120mm of the Conqueror became unnecessary.
                          Claiming that the Centurion was not an MBT because there was a heavier tank available is akin to claiming that the M1A1 is not an MBT because there are vehicles using TOW missiles.
                          As a small aside,Israeli tankers liked the Cent because it had electric turret traverse as opposed to the hydraulic system used on the famous M48/60 series,this was much less apt to catch fire.

                          I vote Centurion.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                            Sour grapes, should never have pitted the two together until the final outcome.

                            So why did you vote Centurion vs the T-55 last time and Sherman this time?

                            I was glad that the Centurion won last time, but I would have had no problem with it losing in that particular poll, the A41 and T-55 being opposite extremes of what might can be considered significant/influential.

                            However, if the Centurion won that poll, it should win this won, and for exactly the same reasons.

                            On reflection, I wonder if the T-55 had won there, and pitted against the M4 here, whether the T-55 would have been winning. Both have exactly the same type of strengths, except the production of the T-55 was greater, and in front line service with more nations for longer.

                            Actually, I know exactly what the result would be .

                            Still, I am hoping for a FT-17 vs MkI-V final .
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                            Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                              So why did you vote Centurion vs the T-55 last time and Sherman this time?

                              I was glad that the Centurion won last time, but I would have had no problem with it losing in that particular poll, the A41 and T-55 being opposite extremes of what might can be considered significant/influential.

                              However, if the Centurion won that poll, it should win this won, and for exactly the same reasons.

                              On reflection, I wonder if the T-55 had won there, and pitted against the M4 here, whether the T-55 would have been winning. Both have exactly the same type of strengths, except the production of the T-55 was greater, and in front line service with more nations for longer.

                              Actually, I know exactly what the result would be .

                              Still, I am hoping for a FT-17 vs MkI-V final .
                              Who in their right mind would vote for the T-55? The T-55 is just the T-34 on steroids, junk. Get it now?

                              My worst jump story:
                              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                              No lie.

                              ~
                              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                                I find it odd that many people who voted in the last round for the Centurion are voting against it now?

                                Last round, its opponent was the T-55, the most massed produced tank in history. It was an okay tank, reliable with average ability, but otherwise only remarkable for numbers fielded and armies served with. The same attributes apply to the Sherman. Some regular posters in the tank section in WW2, who voted M4 here, such as JBark and DogDodger, did vote T-55. As such, I might not agree with their criteria, but they are acting consistently, and therefore with integrity . The others may want to reply why they voted Centurion last time and M4 this round?
                                If I may speculate here, what you say about the M4's performance is correct, but since it was a product of "production design," the M4 may very well have influenced developments not only in mechanized armor, but the very manufacturing process as it then existed. I have no expertise about British armor, but if the Centurion was designed and manufactured like the products of the British automotive industry, it would only stand to reason that the Centurion faced some of the same production and quality-control difficulties that were noted at BSA/Triumph, Jaguar, Sunbeam, etc. So while the Centurion had a fair number of admirable attributes, its method of production would not have been one of them. That might perhaps account for some of the participants voting in favor of the Sherman rather than the Centurion. Perhaps.
                                I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison

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