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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    I would not worry. Too many Yanks voting for their own country's tanks (and not bothering to poll on others) to change this poll.

    You have constantly espoused the virtues of the M4 which I can respect, even if I don't agree with them. However, when it is obvious that nationality becomes the most important element of a poll for many, rather than the topic itself, then that poll becomes tarred with contempt imho.
    I wasn't aware of that. It's a shame and it doesn't even make sense. Lack of knowledge? Couldn't be laziness.

    I have noticed national pride being a big factor and the misplaced "it's the better tank." Personally I'm trying to figure out what the hell Leopard I is doing here over Merkava or Challenger. If none of us are using the same criteria or even close to it then it spells disaster. Match ups add to this. For the record while I would vote the M4 best of WWII I would never rate it number 1 in this poll.
    John

    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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    • #62
      Originally posted by JBark View Post
      " ... Personally I'm trying to figure out what the hell Leopard I is doing here over Merkava or Challenger. ... "
      IMO, T-64 should have dispatched Leopard 1 with ease in the last Round but it didn't, and there it is.
      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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      • #63
        Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
        IMO, T-64 should have dispatched Leopard 1 with ease in the last Round but it didn't, and there it is.
        I'm with you and JBark. Leo1 doesn't belong at this point.
        ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

        BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

        BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
          I think that has stopped the one way rep from moi.
          "You must spread some rep around before you rep NickTheNoodle again".

          I love you man, but I'm just not a regular enough visitor and poster to rep everyone back.
          "Looting would not be tolerated within the Division, unless organised with the knowledge of C.O.'s on a unit basis."
          - 15/19 Hussars War Diary, 18th March 1945

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          • #65
            This poll is not about who 'deserves' to win, it is about who gets the most votes.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              This poll is not about who 'deserves' to win, it is about who gets the most votes.

              Pruitt
              ... and I when I opened the tournament, I had the sincere hope that these would turn out to be the same thing; and in many cases IMO that has been so. In some cases, however, I have doubts and in one or two cases very grave doubts.

              But then, we are asking people to give their opinions and vote based on those opinions so I suppose we should not be all that surprised, really. Opinion is just that.

              It's also possible to become so enmeshed in the pros and cons of each design's worthiness to win, and so dedicated to helping the tank we think deserves the honours to get across the line to the next round, that we can forget.

              What can be forgotten - if usually only for a while - is that we can have fun and learn at the same time. Even if these polls do not always succeed in selecting the "right" tank every time (and IMO they certainly have fallen in a few places - we are all human after all, myself included), I think we are succeeding very well in the other two aims.
              Last edited by panther3485; 13 Sep 14, 02:38.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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              • #67
                Centurion (Britain) for me,

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  ... we are all human after all, myself included...
                  I would like proof of this please.
                  John

                  Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Don Juan View Post
                    "You must spread some rep around before you rep NickTheNoodle again".

                    I love you man, but I'm just not a regular enough visitor and poster to rep everyone back.
                    Rep doesn't have to be answered with rep. If I get rep, I personally trawl through a members posts to find one worth responding to. Some are easier than others . However, if I give rep, a visitor message of thanks is enough for me to continue to do so . I have stopped repping in many cases because I feel any present, however small, deserves thanks .
                    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      Rep doesn't have to be answered with rep. If I get rep, I personally trawl through a members posts to find one worth responding to. Some are easier than others . However, if I give rep, a visitor message of thanks is enough for me to continue to do so .
                      Yes, but your profile doesn't accept visitor messages anymore! Think it must be a status thing, as some of the mods can't be messaged this way either.

                      Still, it's not as bad as mkenny, where you can't even PM him nowadays cuz he doesn't clear his inbox.
                      "Looting would not be tolerated within the Division, unless organised with the knowledge of C.O.'s on a unit basis."
                      - 15/19 Hussars War Diary, 18th March 1945

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                        Well, it at least shows you were listening (ie reading) .
                        I try. Apologies for the delay in responding; I've been on vacation.


                        Calling the Centurion a heavy cruiser, belies the fact it was intended as an design to fulfill both the main roles of a tank, ie at the battlefield tactical, and campaign operational level.
                        Says who? On 9 March 1943, the British General Staff issued policy called for a medium cruiser and heavy cruiser to be developed. The 8 September 1943 General Staff Policy on Tanks first set out the requirement for the new heavy cruiser tank, which was subsequently designated A41. Centurion was never intended to be the universal tank; if it had been why did the British immediately try to replace it with the A45 and FV201, which were specifically designated as universal tanks? And to be frank the Centurion would have done pretty poorly at any operational level maneuvers with its 60-mile road range. That number, of course, would drop precipitously once the vehicle started going cross-country.

                        Mentioning the Conqueror is a red herring, and needs not to be mentioned. Few were built, and were a response to the Soviet heavy tank designs, nothing more.

                        Mr Fletcher also states in The Universal Tank that:
                        Yes, I mentioned that, and and went over why I feel ignoring the entirety of postwar heavy tank development is a mistake, especially when the crux of this little debate is whether or not the Centurion was a "universal" tank.

                        And to quote the Centurions influence on the US, General John O'Daniel, commanding the US 1st Corps in Korea, stated:
                        Tanks were climbing mountains in World War II as well, but this doesn't really affect whether or not Centurion was designed as a replacement for Britain's many tank types.

                        Finally, the basic design of the Centurion is so superior, that it remains, in a highly modified form, a true MBT today, and not just used because it is available. Its significance and influence lies in its longevity and ability to perform capable front line service over 60 years, which is more than half the time the tank has actually been around .
                        The South Africans have heavily modified their Centurions and continue to use them (along with the Free Libyan Army and Somalia according to Wikipedia, but I feel the latter two can be ignored as far as modern ground warfare is concerned...), but when they were acquired the British government was not officially opposed to Apartheid and viewed South Africa as an important trade partner, including for arms. After Britain started applying sanctions to South Africa in the 1970s, Centurions were acquired from Jordan and India (which were disguised as farm equipment to get around anti-Apartheid sanctions). So it seems that they were acquired, retained, and upgraded because they were all that was available to the country once opinion turned against Apartheid.

                        For the record, I voted in favor of the Centurion during the first two rounds and have no doubt that it was a fantastic design. But I do not agree that it was intended as a universal tank, and indeed it did not serve as a universal tank since a heavy tank was also fielded until the Centurion's replacement Chieftain was built. The heavy tank Conqueror was there to outrange the Centurion's gun and in turn protect it. No matter where I'm from, I consider that the combat action in which the Sherman took part has more significance than what the Centurion contributed to tank design--a heavy cruiser that featured similar specifications to the Panther, T-44, M26, etc.

                        Originally posted by Don Juan View Post
                        Yes, but your profile doesn't accept visitor messages anymore!
                        I've noticed this as well. Nick corrected me in the past when I didn't realize it was desirable to leave thank-you visitor messages for reputation received (this is the only forum in which I participate where reputation blips are taken to heart, and I appreciated the advice), but I was unable to do that for the last one I received from him.

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                        • #72
                          Sherman

                          Echoing many of the comments here. The Centurian was certainly a superior tank but if the criteria is the most significant, it has to be the Sherman per production, versatility and being available at the right time.

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                          • #73
                            While no fan of the Sherman, I am going to stick to my decision to judge on significance since I am not an expert on influence. Based on that, the Sherman is clearly the more historically significant tank.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Don Juan View Post
                              Yes, but your profile doesn't accept visitor messages anymore! Think it must be a status thing, as some of the mods can't be messaged this way either.

                              Still, it's not as bad as mkenny, where you can't even PM him nowadays cuz he doesn't clear his inbox.

                              I certainly still get VM's, and I certainly have not done anything to stop VM's? I'll ask the Mods.
                              How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                              Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Warbird View Post
                                Echoing many of the comments here. The Centurian was certainly a superior tank but if the criteria is the most significant, it has to be the Sherman per production, versatility and being available at the right time.
                                Originally posted by warmoviebuff View Post
                                While no fan of the Sherman, I am going to stick to my decision to judge on significance since I am not an expert on influence. Based on that, the Sherman is clearly the more historically significant tank.
                                While I disagree with you both, at least you also voted T-34 on the other thread, so you are being both consistent and judging with integrity .

                                Its those who voted M4 here and also Abrams on the other poll that should be judged suspect .
                                How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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