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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

    My top 4, ie those that I personally deem suitable for the semifinal, would be:
    MkI-V
    FT-17
    T-34
    Centurion

    and with a MkI-V vs FT-17 final.
    I would prefer the M1 to the M4 in the final 4 as well.

    The M4 significance is that the US decided to continue to build a design that was starting to become obsolete as the war ended, and its real influence is that the US warmachine proved it could outbuild its opponents, with a good enough tank for the task at hand.

    That doctrine was suddenly dropped by the West after WW2, with only the very best kit being used where possible. The Sherman's duff reputation, rightly or wrongly, among the average soldiers, the politicians and public caused a shift away from usuable kit to decent kit. This is why the US use the M1 for frontline service, and not the very workman like M60, which could still give a first class account of itself against the vast majority of opponents out there.

    Quality has a quality of its own (see what I did there ).
    It is strange that the US went from massive numbers to nothing but the best. While russia remanded at quanty has a quality of it's own. But I suspect it has to do with solders and training. A high tech tank need a highly trained crew to be used to it's best. The soviets had a mainly conscript army and I think they choice the right tanks for them.

    Iraq is kind of proof of that. I mean they use T72s as while has they use M1s. So the cheaper T72 is the correct choice.

    And yes quality has a quality all on it's own. I was reading on what 16 olfant MK1s(basicaly a centurion 105mm with a handheld laser rang finder) did in angola. And they where able to shrug of hits from T55 and keep on fighting. That was in the late 1980s. The sherman only enterd serves a few years before the cent but where obsoliet long befor the centurion.
    you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

    CPO Mzinyati

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    • #47
      Originally posted by andrewza View Post
      It is strange that the US went from massive numbers to nothing but the best. While russia remanded at quanty has a quality of it's own. But I suspect it has to do with solders and training. A high tech tank need a highly trained crew to be used to it's best. The soviets had a mainly conscript army and I think they choice the right tanks for them.

      Iraq is kind of proof of that. I mean they use T72s as while has they use M1s. So the cheaper T72 is the correct choice.

      And yes quality has a quality all on it's own. I was reading on what 16 olfant MK1s(basicaly a centurion 105mm with a handheld laser rang finder) did in angola. And they where able to shrug of hits from T55 and keep on fighting. That was in the late 1980s. The sherman only enterd serves a few years before the cent but where obsoliet long befor the centurion.
      Remember, that this is not a best tank thread, so that the fact that Centurion is a better tank than the Sherman is not really a point here. Nor is the fact that the Sherman is nearly always superior to the T-34 in one on one capability, except perhaps from the introduction of the T-34/85 until D-Day.

      Personally I believe the Sherman does belong in the last 8, and a quarter final position is commendable. However, it should not get further than that imho.
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      • #48
        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
        " ... Personally I believe the Sherman does belong in the last 8, and a quarter final position is commendable. However, it should not get further than that imho."
        If the current polling situation is any guide, the Sherman looks as if it might be good for one more round at least. But the margin is still very close and there's plenty of time left. We'll see, I guess.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          If the current polling situation is any guide, the Sherman looks as if it might be good for one more round at least. But the margin is still very close and there's plenty of time left. We'll see, I guess.
          Or the centurion will go through. This poll is really tight
          you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

          CPO Mzinyati

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          • #50
            Originally posted by andrewza View Post
            Or the centurion will go through. This poll is really tight
            Yes, it could still easily go either way.
            "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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            • #51
              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
              Yes, it could still easily go either way.
              No it won't.
              I've just gone through who has posted for who, and there are some US posters here who have only voted for the two US tanks, and not bothered with the other two polls. That is why the numbers voting on this particular poll are higher than the others.

              Oddly enough, if they hadn't voted in their national interest the Centurion would be ahead by 1 at this point. This is exactly why this poll is as much about nationality as about tanks. It's a bit of an embarrassment really .
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              • #52
                Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                Remember, that this is not a best tank thread, so that the fact that Centurion is a better tank than the Sherman is not really a point here. Nor is the fact that the Sherman is nearly always superior to the T-34 in one on one capability, except perhaps from the introduction of the T-34/85 until D-Day.

                Personally I believe the Sherman does belong in the last 8, and a quarter final position is commendable. However, it should not get further than that imho.
                If this was a best tank thread I could see the Sherman winning this easily but as for most influential then I vote no.
                “When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.”
                ― Groucho Marx

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                • #53
                  Tiger Tiger Tiger Tiger Tiger
                  One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post

                    My top 4, ie those that I personally deem suitable for the semifinal, would be:
                    MkI-V
                    FT-17
                    T-34
                    Centurion


                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                    The M4 significance is that the US decided to continue to build a design that was starting to become obsolete as the war ended, and its real influence is that the US warmachine proved it could outbuild its opponents, with a good enough tank for the task at hand.
                    The M4's signicance is that it was still being built toward the war's end? Do I understand this correctly? It is not significant as a durable, reliable and versatile workhorse that defeated the axis? It's not significant as having been used by just about every major allied combatant in winning the war?

                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                    That doctrine was suddenly dropped by the West after WW2, with only the very best kit being used where possible. The Sherman's duff reputation, rightly or wrongly, among the average soldiers, the politicians and public caused a shift away from usuable kit to decent kit.
                    Interesting that you see it that way. I didn't think we were using the best tanks post '45 and when we made the shift to better development I would have thought a general willingness to spend more militarily might have been the reason. The US is the country that went through the last part of the last century with more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined, the B-52, the B-1, B-2 F-18, F-15, F-15, F-14, and stealth fighter and bomber and oodles more. I think the sleeping giant was awakened and war machines make for great industry. Keep in mind that despite Facebook farmers, actors, bankers, students, crab fisherman and potato pickers hardly ever know about or agree on what goes on with the military as far as equipment is concerned. I would say that our improved "kit" is simply the result of a willingness to spend more couples with pretty decent technology (usually a bi-product of spending.)
                    John

                    Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Checkertail20 View Post
                      If this was a best tank thread I could see the Sherman winning this easily but as for most influential then I vote no.
                      What did the Centurion influence?
                      John

                      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JBark View Post
                        Not for the first time .

                        Originally posted by JBark View Post
                        The M4's signicance is that it was still being built toward the war's end? Do I understand this correctly? It is not significant as a durable, reliable and versatile workhorse that defeated the axis? It's not significant as having been used by just about every major allied combatant in winning the war?
                        The M4's significance is that it was absolutely the only option available in many cases to the Allies. Its almost a Communist tank in that it is your only option much of the time.

                        It was often the only option because US industry was MEGA and every other country paled into insignificance when considering what the US could produce. If your only supplier only supplies one medium tank, then that is what you will use. No other option exists. Have I used the word 'option' enough yet .

                        The M4 was very useful tank. It was a workhorse that was reliable, easy to manufacture, and contrary to most internet sites, carried a decent gun in the M3 75mm. Many people see the AK-47 akin to the T-34. I see more similarities with AK-47 and the Sherman - reliable, reliable, reliable. That is good.

                        As best goes, I will always place the Sherman in my top 3 WW2 best tanks.

                        However, the fact remains that the M4 was less important in WW2 than the T-34 as far as this poll's criteria is concerned. The fact remains that if the enemies warmachine had not been collapsing in 44, and that any tank in numbers would have been good enough to beat the enemy, the Sherman would not have ranked highly. (For about the same price, you could have about twice as many Valentine XI's with the same firepower, armour and reliability as the M4). It would have been superceded very quickly and forgotten, like the Crusader, apart from some tank nutters (that's us btw).

                        Originally posted by JBark View Post
                        Interesting that you see it that way. I didn't think we were using the best tanks post '45 and when we made the shift to better development I would have thought a general willingness to spend more militarily might have been the reason. The US is the country that went through the last part of the last century with more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world combined, the B-52, the B-1, B-2 F-18, F-15, F-15, F-14, and stealth fighter and bomber and oodles more. I think the sleeping giant was awakened and war machines make for great industry. Keep in mind that despite Facebook farmers, actors, bankers, students, crab fisherman and potato pickers hardly ever know about or agree on what goes on with the military as far as equipment is concerned. I would say that our improved "kit" is simply the result of a willingness to spend more couples with pretty decent technology (usually a bi-product of spending.)
                        I disagree. By Korea Britain was using the Centurion III with the 20pdr gun. Effectively, we have an uparmoured Panther with the Sherman's reliability and King Tigers hitting power. And it can climb mountains like a Churchill.

                        Come the L7 105mm and we are talking a tank with the best gun in the world until the 1980's.

                        That leaves the Centurion as the most dominant, important and significant tank at least from c45-c80 imho. The Centurion pales into insignificance against the the FT-17 and MkI-V's as far as this poll's criteria is concerned (again imho), but remains the most significant tank post WW2.

                        Unlike the Sherman, it has remained a viable MBT still to this day, over 60 years after its debut.
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                        • #57
                          Voted M4.

                          Why? Well, tbh, I don't think any post-war tank will be that significant. Post-war is all about small arms or air power with little inbetween. Centurion is the best golf player in the bingo hall. Influential? On further post-war British designs, yes. But can't see what it affected elsewhere.

                          M4 is the most significant, and if it had no design features that were carried on, it did at least raise expectations for reliability well above a bar that had been set before. Neither tanks should win this poll, in that I do agree.
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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Don Juan View Post
                            Voted M4.

                            Why? Well, tbh, I don't think any post-war tank will be that significant. Post-war is all about small arms or air power with little inbetween. Centurion is the best golf player in the bingo hall. Influential? On further post-war British designs, yes. But can't see what it affected elsewhere.

                            M4 is the most significant, and if it had no design features that were carried on, it did at least raise expectations for reliability well above a bar that had been set before. Neither tanks should win this poll, in that I do agree.
                            I think that has stopped the one way rep from moi.
                            How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              It was often the only option because US industry was MEGA and every other country paled into insignificance when considering what the US could produce. If your only supplier only supplies one medium tank, then that is what you will use. No other option exists. Have I used the word 'option' enough yet .
                              I think we don't agree here again. It isn't the option because it's all we had its the option because it worked. It hit the ground in late '42 and everyone was damn glad to see it. What changes and when? I know the story on "it wasn't good enough by D-Day" and I don't buy it. It's working, it's getting the job done, it's blowing stuff up and killing Jerries. What more does it need to do?

                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              The M4 was very useful tank. It was a workhorse that was reliable, easy to manufacture, and contrary to most internet sites, carried a decent gun in the M3 75mm.
                              (My emphasis)

                              Well thank you for that. Definitely not "heard" often enough.

                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              As best goes, I will always place the Sherman in my top 3 WW2 best tanks.
                              Good to hear.

                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              However, the fact remains that the M4 was less important in WW2 than the T-34 as far as this poll's criteria is concerned.
                              There's one I don't understand. I look at the influence on the battlefields and therefore significance of the M4 as greater since it was more widespread, if for no other reasons.

                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              I disagree. By Korea Britain was using the Centurion III with the 20pdr gun. Effectively, we have an uparmoured Panther with the Sherman's reliability and King Tigers hitting power. And it can climb mountains like a Churchill.
                              I think you misunderstood me here. I said "we" and meant my home country, the United States.

                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              That leaves the Centurion as the most dominant, important and significant tank at least from c45-c80 imho. The Centurion pales into insignificance against the the FT-17 and MkI-V's as far as this poll's criteria is concerned (again imho), but remains the most significant tank post WW2.
                              Significant how? Dominating what battlefields in what conflicts. Compare them to WWII. I am evaluating these machines on their significance and influence on world events and nothing post '45 comes close in significance. Technological significance is all well and good but I recall reading that technology didn't win tank battles in WWII, tactics did. So how highly should we rate it here?

                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              Unlike the Sherman, it has remained a viable MBT still to this day, over 60 years after its debut.
                              I don't think this is a worthwhile comparison.
                              John

                              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JBark View Post
                                I think we don't agree here again. It isn't the option because it's all we had its the option because it worked. It hit the ground in late '42 and everyone was damn glad to see it. What changes and when? I know the story on "it wasn't good enough by D-Day" and I don't buy it. It's working, it's getting the job done, it's blowing stuff up and killing Jerries. What more does it need to do?

                                (My emphasis)

                                Well thank you for that. Definitely not "heard" often enough.



                                Good to hear.



                                There's one I don't understand. I look at the influence on the battlefields and therefore significance of the M4 as greater since it was more widespread, if for no other reasons.



                                I think you misunderstood me here. I said "we" and meant my home country, the United States.



                                Significant how? Dominating what battlefields in what conflicts. Compare them to WWII. I am evaluating these machines on their significance and influence on world events and nothing post '45 comes close in significance. Technological significance is all well and good but I recall reading that technology didn't win tank battles in WWII, tactics did. So how highly should we rate it here?



                                I don't think this is a worthwhile comparison.
                                I would not worry. Too many Yanks voting for their own country's tanks (and not bothering to poll on others) to change this poll.

                                You have constantly espoused the virtues of the M4 which I can respect, even if I don't agree with them. However, when it is obvious that nationality becomes the most important element of a poll for many, rather than the topic itself, then that poll becomes tarred with contempt imho.
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