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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • #16
    I've decided, I think ?

    The M4 represents the superiority of the US warmachine in WW2, not any actual significance in tank design itself. It was the last of the real US medium tanks, not the first of a new class. Like my best tank of WW2, little of its design or features were either first or carried on in future tank development.

    On the other hand, the Centurion was the first Universal tank, leading directly to the modern MBT's. It was so successful with the L7 105mm that it was adopted as a NATO standard, and even used as late as the first M1 Abrams on production tanks, and current Stryker combat vehicles. Unlike some WW2 tanks that have seen service since WW2, simply because they were available, the Centurion has been a preferred choice for many nations.

    Centurion just nails it for me here, just.
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    • #17

      Gosh! Sherman beats Centurion in significance i'd say. The Western Allied Tank of WW2. Fought in every theatre, on almost every front. Built in huge numbers.
      Centurion takes the influential part, OTOH. If it would have entered service six months earlier i would probably go Cent . Haven't decided yet...
      Last edited by Hanov; 07 Sep 14, 08:11.
      One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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      • #18
        I went with the Centurion.

        Imo the bridge between a 40's design and a modern MBT.

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        • #19
          Having voted, I'm glad this is a close vote, because it should be.
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          • #20
            I voted centurion. Why. Both tanks are signifcant and have a lot of influnce. I just like the centurion more.
            you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

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            • #21
              The fact that the Sherman is now winning by such a large margin is wrong. It reminds me of the Best tank destroyer poll that found the M36 Jackson was apparently superior to the M10 Achilles as a tank destroyer, according to ACG voters at that time.

              The Achilles had the British 17pdr. The M36 had the US 90mm. That was the real difference between the two in physical terms. Armour, speed, mobility were all basically the same. The only real difference was their gun and availability.

              The Achilles was available for the Normandy campaign in 44. The M36 was not. There were two times in the Western theatre that the Germans used lots of tanks, and the the M36 was not there for one of them.

              With a gun that was less effective than the British weapon in its primary role, and only available when it really counted half the time, the Achilles should have wiped the M36 off the board. Instead, the M36 got more than twice the votes of the US AFV with the British gun. By more than twice as much?

              When a machine is considered better, when it was less available and less effective, the voting can be judged more than suspect. Nationalism rather than intelligence is the reason why one was chosen over the other.

              I pray that this will not be the case here.
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              • #22
                At this point, 25 votes to 20. And this Round has been open less that two days yet. Certainly the Sherman looks more likely to win but that sort of margin is not exactly what I'd call huge.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                  On the other hand, the Centurion was the first Universal tank, leading directly to the modern MBT's.
                  After a fashion it was, but not initially. Centurion was designed as a heavy cruiser tank, and itself was quickly set to be replaced by the actual Universal Tank--that is the A45/FV201 project that ended up being cancelled in October 1948. The official requirement for the FV214 heavy gun tank no. 1--which eventually turned into the Conqueror--was released in June 1949, and Conquerors served from 1955 until 1967. Chieftain Mk.I entered service in 1966, and was intended from the start to encompass the firepower of the Conqueror, so it may have a better claim to the title of Britain's first universal or main battle tank. As Rob Griffin wrote concerning the Chieftain's development: "It was considered that at some stage a way would have to be found to merge the Conqueror and the Centurion into a single new vehicle..." Also he states, "In 1957 the Fourth Tripartite conference with America, Britain and Canada was held in Quebec, and it made the recommendation that medium and heavy gun tanks should be embodied in one class of vehicle, to be known as the 'main battle tank'...As far as the UK was concerned, the concept was already embodied in the proposed medium gun tank no.2...Eventually, the vehicle would be known as 'Chieftain'..."

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                  • #24
                    Certainly the Centurion was a first rate MBT, but the Sherman, by its sheer omnipresence, has my vote.
                    "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                    Samuel Johnson.

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                    • #25
                      Centurion for me.
                      "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

                      --Hávamál

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                      • #26
                        Don't be to upset Nick, there's plenty of time left.

                        It was tough to vote against what is probably my favorite tank, the Centurion.

                        When the Sherman first appeared in N Africa, Rommel commented that it was the best tank on the battlefield. I consider that influential.

                        Its automotive superiority is both significant and influential. I recall an interview in some History Channel doc where a German tanker comments that he would take a Sherman over ANY German tank. Why? Shermans were reliable.

                        I could go on and on about why Sherman deserves the win. But national pride is certainly not one of the reasons.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                          While first in service in 1945 the Centurion was competitive well into the 60s if not later. The Indians equipped with Centurions beat a much larger force of Pak m47s at Asal Uttar in 1965.
                          The Sherman, except for the heavily modified Israeli versions, was never really competitive with the likely opposition.
                          Tank v tank, if that is your litmus here, represented only a portion of the M4's work. In terms of how it faired against it opposition I'd have to ask which tanks you mean. In WWII it seemed to do pretty well.

                          Also, when you say "except for the heavily modified Israeli versions" does that mean you exclude them from consideration? The last time I checked they were Shermans...or do we exclude the modified Shermans but allow the modified Centurions?
                          John

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                            The fact that the Sherman is now winning by such a large margin is wrong. It reminds me of the Best tank destroyer poll that found the M36 Jackson was apparently superior to the M10 Achilles as a tank destroyer, according to ACG voters at that time.

                            The Achilles had the British 17pdr. The M36 had the US 90mm. That was the real difference between the two in physical terms. Armour, speed, mobility were all basically the same. The only real difference was their gun and availability.

                            The Achilles was available for the Normandy campaign in 44. The M36 was not. There were two times in the Western theatre that the Germans used lots of tanks, and the the M36 was not there for one of them.

                            With a gun that was less effective than the British weapon in its primary role, and only available when it really counted half the time, the Achilles should have wiped the M36 off the board. Instead, the M36 got more than twice the votes of the US AFV with the British gun. By more than twice as much?

                            When a machine is considered better, when it was less available and less effective, the voting can be judged more than suspect. Nationalism rather than intelligence is the reason why one was chosen over the other.

                            I pray that this will not be the case here.
                            Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
                            Don't be to upset Nick, there's plenty of time left.

                            It was tough to vote against what is probably my favorite tank, the Centurion.

                            When the Sherman first appeared in N Africa, Rommel commented that it was the best tank on the battlefield. I consider that influential.

                            Its automotive superiority is both significant and influential. I recall an interview in some History Channel doc where a German tanker comments that he would take a Sherman over ANY German tank. Why? Shermans were reliable.

                            I could go on and on about why Sherman deserves the win. But national pride is certainly not one of the reasons.
                            That's good to hear. The Sherman tends to be thoroughly underrated or totally overrated imho. In terms of best in WW2, I usually give it 2nd or 3rd spot, depending on where I put the T-34 (1st or 3rd depending on my mood ).

                            The M4 was a good tank, but its numbers are a failing, and not a pointer to its ability. It was continued in production when newer designs should have been available. The British loved the Sherman in 42, and was probably the best tank in any army until D-Day. The 7th armoured division was not happy on being told just prior to D-Day that they would fight in Cromwells, and would have to discard their Shermans. However, later in 44, they were really pleased that their Sabre squadrons (those in tank battalions) would not have their Cromwells replaced by Shermans because losses in US units were so great that even the US warmachine could not supply enough for both armies.

                            I probably will be neg repping all those who voted Sherman without posting a valid why .

                            I think I better send PM's to make sure they know what is incoming if they don't post .
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                            • #29

                              Ahhh Nick, you pushed me towards the Cent here.

                              Still have not decided yet. You offering the Peitsche only! Where is the Zuckerbrot?
                              One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hanov View Post

                                Ahhh Nick, you pushed me towards the Cent here.

                                Still have not decided yet. You offering the Peitsche only! Where is the Zuckerbrot?

                                In reality, I'd never neg rep anyone for an opinion, even if it was obviously wrong.

                                I do get annoyed when voting is based on nationalist pride rather than poll criteria, just as was blatantly obvious in the Best Tank Destroyer thread.

                                Anyway +1 just because you asked for it, and it costs me nothing afterall.

                                Edit: You will have to wait because I must have repped you recently .
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