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Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

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  • Rnd 4 - M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)

    Round 4: M4 Sherman (USA) vs Centurion (Britain)


    The Sherman first entered combat in British hands near the end of 1942, and was well regarded by them. The virtues of the M4 - which included its wide availability - allowed it to serve very effectively in a variety of environments and on a global scale. There are few Allied tanks in WW2 that can claim to have served in as many theatres and locations; and none in anything like the numbers. The combination of its sound fundamental attributes together with reliability and adaptability and the numbers available, made the Sherman a highly valuable tool in the Allied effort. The M4 also had a quite noteworthy post-WW2 career.

    The Centurion, which appeared in service shortly after WW2, has enjoyed a very long and remarkably successful life. It has been used by a very considerable number of countries, serving with distinction in numerous conflicts around the World. A few nations are still using updated/modified versions of this very noteworthy AFV which has proven to be an exceptionally sound design; and is reckoned by many to be one of the all-time best and most effective tanks.

    Very few if any tank enthusiasts would dispute, that these two tanks are among the most significant and influential ever to take the field.
    However, only one of them can progress to the Semi-Final and it's up to you guys - the members of ACG - to decide.


    Which of these two great tanks is the more significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #32 - M4 Sherman (USA)

    Active Service Entry – late 1942
    Weight – 30 - 32 tons
    Top Speed – 40 - 48 km/h (25 - 30 mph)
    Main Armament – 75mm gun
    No. Produced – 49,234

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman
















    Candidate #33 - Centurion (Britain)

    (Note: Some data approximate only; subject to update)
    Service Entry – 1946
    Weight – 46 – 51 tons ~ (in basic form, depending on variant)
    Top Speed – 35 km/h (22 mph) (early versions – faster for some later versions)
    Main Armament – 17pdr, 20pdr or 105mm gun
    No. Produced – 4,400

    For further info, check Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centurion_tank















    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!


    95
    M4 Sherman (USA)
    52.63%
    50
    Centurion (Britain)
    47.37%
    45

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 06 Sep 14, 13:00.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    I'll stay with the Centurion. Even America abandoned the Sherman post WWII.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      Sherman was one hell of a tank during World War 2 and even saw some service in Korea but soon after was given away to the our allies. Another words we found better toys to play with.

      The Centurion came in at the tail end of World War 2 so didn't see the action the Sherman did but saw action in future conflicts when the Sherman was outdated.

      My vote goes to the Centurion.
      “When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.”
      ― Groucho Marx

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      • #4
        I'd have to say I believe the Centurion to be the more influential of the two from a design perspective.
        BoRG
        "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

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        • #5
          This is going to be a toughie. I think I've made my choice, but I'll muse it over just to make sure.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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          • #6
            I've been going over this one for a while now, and I can't choose. I can easily argue in favor of both vehicles.
            ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

            BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

            BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

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            • #7
              Sherman although I really like the Centurion.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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              • #8
                Centurion, just.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are some tanks in this poll which have an "advantage" in that they saw service in WWII and were thus influential in shaping world events. Fighting on and taking part in the victory over evil shaped world order for years to come. The Sherman is just such a tank. The Centurion was a good machine, no doubt, and was used for many, many years. It could do it all. It was the universal tank. With only 4000+ made it is a little hard to compare it to the 49000+ of the M4 or the T-34. Can we honestly say that Centurion, with the conflicts it was involved in and the numbers produced could be as significant as the Sherman?
                  There are many that will always fall back to the comparison of the M4 to the German Tigers and Panther. Discussions of the M4 always end up with comparisons to the cats. These discussions ignore the contributions that the Sherman made in the Pacific, where it easily dispatched inferior Japanese armor, ignore the importance of having been fielded by numerous Allied combatants in WWII, ignoring that the majority of the combat in which tanks were involved was not against other armor and in this role the Sherman excelled, and lastly ignoring that the Sherman, like the Centurion, was the basis for a great variety of vehicles from artillery to engineering. The M4 was extremely versatile, durllable and reliable. It could be produced in numbers and those numbers could be fielded in such numbers to win the war. The ludacricy of minimizing this tank to its infrequent fights against the German cats does no historical justice and is a practice that should end and end soon.
                  John

                  Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                    This is going to be a toughie. I think I've made my choice, but I'll muse it over just to make sure.
                    Indeed. Not an easy one for me either; and I'll be giving it a lot of thought.

                    Originally posted by Gixxer86g View Post
                    I've been going over this one for a while now, and I can't choose. I can easily argue in favor of both vehicles.
                    I hear ya. I've already come up with excellent arguments in my own mind, to support both these candidates so I'm in a similar dilemma; but of course I will make a choice before the poll closes.
                    Last edited by panther3485; 06 Sep 14, 22:59.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JBark View Post
                      " ... The ludacricy of minimizing this tank to its infrequent fights against the German cats does no historical justice and is a practice that should end and end soon."
                      Agreed. When considered against the immense scope, extent and value of all the Sherman's service in WW2, how it squared off against PzKpfw V and VI is quite a minor consideration approaching the point of irrelevance IMO; especially given the criteria for these polls.
                      It might be a bit different if we were supposed to be discussing how "good" each tank was compared to the others but even then the value of such comparisons can be, and often is, over-rated.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Centurion was / is a good tank. About 8,000 were built. Nothing in its design influenced anyone to do anything.

                        The Sherman on the other hand was built in huge numbers (nearly 40,000). It was used as a combat vehicle for nearly 5 decades. It proved capable of taking incredible amounts of modification into all sorts of uses.

                        Sure, it has its shortcomings, so does the Centurion. But, no one can argue with its success. Dozens of militaries have used it for years. The Centurion has served in a handful and outside Korea and Israel never really saw combat.
                        The Sherman has fought and done so successfully in dozens of wars around the planet. It really represents Detroit's engineering genius at it's height.
                        The Centrurion is really just a better British tank culminating from the, I kind of hate to say it, mediocrity, forced on them by WW 2.
                        In 1945 you have a tank with so-so armor, an unreliable drive train, a 17pdr gun. This is against the Tiger II, the M 26 Pershing, the T-29 to 34 series heavy tanks.
                        The Centurion got better as a tank but it was never by any means some world beater.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          While first in service in 1945 the Centurion was competitive well into the 60s if not later. The Indians equipped with Centurions beat a much larger force of Pak m47s at Asal Uttar in 1965.
                          The Sherman, except for the heavily modified Israeli versions, was never really competitive with the likely opposition.
                          "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                            I hear ya. I've already come up with excellent arguments in my own mind, to support both these candidates so I'm in a similar dilemma; but of course I will make a choice before the poll closes.
                            Thankfully, we have some time......

                            This might be the toughest choice of the poll. Quite evil of you Mr. Panther.
                            ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                            BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                            BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well, I made my choice. And I feel sad. The Centurion is one of my favorite tanks. Sherman takes it.
                              ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

                              BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

                              BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

                              Comment

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