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Rnd 4 - Tanks Mk I-V (Britain) vs Leopard 1 (Germany)

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  • Rnd 4 - Tanks Mk I-V (Britain) vs Leopard 1 (Germany)

    Round 4: Tanks Mk I-V (Britain) vs Leopard 1 (Germany)


    The British Mk I-V was the first physical fighting embodiment of the word, "tank"; the first basic tank design ever to go into battle; and the first tank successfully used for a large-scale armoured penetration of an enemy defensive line. These are certainly noteworthy firsts but no doubt, members will consider for themselves the true significance or value of them. In addition, more of this basic type saw combat in WW1 than any other tank except the Renault FT-17. That said, the fundamental design was rendered instantly obsolete as soon as the latter appeared.

    The Leopard 1 utilized technology of the late 1950's/early 1960's, with the highest priorities given (by the standards of that time) to armament and mobility over armour. Although it has seen very little combat, Leopard 1 has had a very substantial 'peacetime' career, being used by more than a dozen countries, and was kept viable over a good length of time with various upgrades. Except for the somewhat lower priority placed on armour for Leopard 1, the very sound basic design philosophy behind this tank was more or less carried over to Leopard 2.


    On one hand then, we are being asked to evaluate a tank that was rudimentary indeed when compared to any tank used even during WW2, never mind the post-WW2 era. On the other, we somehow have to compare it for significance and influence (not how "good" it was) with a much more modern and sophisticated machine; a product that could draw on several decade's worth of knowledge, development and progress.

    Question is, which one of these two tanks represents the greater significance and/or influence? Only one of them will make it to the Semi-Final and you can help decide.


    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?


    Candidate #1 - Tanks Mk I-V (Britain)

    Active Service Entry – 1916 (Mk I)
    Weight – From 27 tons (Mk I ‘Female’) up to 29 tons (Mk. V ‘Male’)
    Top Speed – From 6 km/h (3.7 mph) (Mk I) up to 8 km/h (5 mph) (Mk. V)
    Main Armament – 2 x 6pdr guns (Male) or 4 x .303 MGs (Female)
    No. Produced – 1,870, Mks I-V combined

    For further basic info, you can start with Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...of_World_War_I


    Tank Mk.I (Male)






    Tanks Mk.IV 'Female' (left) and 'Male' (right)







    Candidate #37 - Leopard 1 (Germany)

    Service Entry – 1965
    Weight – 40-42 metric tons
    Top Speed – 65 km/h (40 mph)
    Main Armament – 105mm gun
    No. Produced – 4,510

    For further info, check these:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1
    http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product152.html















    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!




    89
    Tanks Mk I-V (Britain)
    79.78%
    71
    Leopard 1 (Germany)
    20.22%
    18

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 06 Sep 14, 10:01.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Mk I. I'm a bit puzzled by these types of comparisons, because the later tanks are not innovative in the way that early tanks were. Again, the Leopard brought nothing new to the table.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

    Comment


    • #3
      Voted for MK-I.
      “When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.”
      ― Groucho Marx

      Comment


      • #4
        Mk I-IV
        BoRG
        "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

        Comment


        • #5
          The other easy choice, Mk1-IV is definitely superior in regards to this poll.
          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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          • #6
            Mk1.
            ALL LIVES SPLATTER!

            BLACK JEEPS MATTER!

            BLACK MOTORCYCLES MATTER!

            Comment


            • #7
              I just like the M I-V better.

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #8
                Easy choice for the Brits.

                I'm actually quite surprise the Leopard 1 got this far. It's a good machine and I do like it but it must have had some good brackets to get here ahead of the Panther, Tigers and T-54/55.
                "Artillery lends dignity to what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl." - Frederick the Great

                Comment


                • #9
                  Who voted Leopard? Because it weren't me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Mk I. I'm a bit puzzled by these types of comparisons, because the later tanks are not innovative in the way that early tanks were. Again, the Leopard brought nothing new to the table.
                    Understand where you are coming from, MM.

                    Of course, innovation - important as it most certainly is - cannot be the only criterion because as we all know there are many factors that could be considered when evaluating the significance and influence of a tank design.
                    However, be that as it may I think this is perhaps a good time to clarify for all members why I have chosen the approach I am using for this tournament.
                    Therefore, I hope you won't mind if I use this as an opportunity to do so?


                    Anyone who has been around ACG for a substantial period of time (and that means most of us here) will have participated in, or at least seen, quite a few tank polls as well as a considerable number of threads in which tanks have been discussed. Almost all of the polls and many of the threads have been about which designs were the "best" or "greatest" and a large proportion of the remainder have been posted to discuss tank attributes, tactics, combat success/failure, vulnerabilities to various weapons; the reasons why, etc.

                    In addition, we have also tended almost always to confine our discussions to a particular conflict or era, for obvious reasons.

                    However, with these "Most Significant/Influential Tank" polls we have been called upon to think seriously about things in a rather different way than many of us are used to. So, for many members the first challenge was to stop thinking of "best" or "greatest" as the most important thing, and instead put "significance" and "influence" uppermost in our minds when comparing the tanks.

                    We also have a situation where we began these polls with the tanks clearly divided into specific "time groups" but those have now disappeared, and we have begun pairing tanks from different eras against each other. For many, this is going well outside of their usual "comfort zone" and it becomes the second challenge.

                    But, think of it this way:

                    Out of the 64 candidates, only one was ever going to end up being deemed by the ACG membership as the most significant/influential tank of all time. It was therefore inevitable that at some point, the boundaries of the four time groups we started with would have to disappear. It then becomes a question of when do we take the boundaries away?

                    Is it necessary, or even desirable to keep the tanks strictly within their time groups until the last possible moment? I certainly do not believe so. Why? Because I think we need to start exploring with our thoughts across those boundaries before we get to the Semi-Final where we'd be forced to do it anyway. (And the Semi-Final is only the next round, this one being the Quarter-Final of course).

                    That's why I gradually "phased out" the time groups across successive rounds. IMO, getting everyone to start thinking that way now and getting used to the idea, is better than being hit with it just before the end.


                    Last edited by panther3485; 07 Sep 14, 01:24.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                      "Easy choice for the Brits."
                      I don't see this as being a particularly difficult choice for anyone.


                      Originally posted by frisco17 View Post
                      " ... I'm actually quite surprise the Leopard 1 got this far. ... "
                      You and me both! Got me stuffed how Leopard 1 beat T-64 in the previous Round but it did (even if the margin was very narrow).

                      Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                      Who voted Leopard? Because it weren't me.
                      Me neither!!!!

                      ... But hey, the members are all entitled to their opinions and we must respect the outcome. A poll is a poll.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Really...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm really tempted to vote Leopard 1.....

                          As pr. the arguments in post #100 in another thread, the Rhomboids a.k.a. Tank Mk. I-IV and beyond were not very influential. They lend a few features to two aborted tank designs (German and French) but were otherwise dead-ends technology-wise. The appearance of these tanks caused the Germans to start looking into a tank program on their own, but it never got much priority, nor did the Germans develop any real anti-tank weapon programme when these British tanks appeared. Influential, they were not.

                          Significant, they were in the sense that they participated and contributed to the development of British overall combat techniques and tactics in the late war period.
                          IIRC production of the Leopard 1 and Rhomboid tanks was about the same (some 4.000) and the Leopard 1 saw service with many countries all over the world, but very little actual combat (Bosnia, Afghanistan).
                          In my book, the Rhomboids does take the crown for significance, as it played an important role in the development of war-winning tactics for one of the significant powers in WWI.

                          As for influence, I dont really see the Leopard 1 bringing anything new to the table that influenced anyone. Just a good, solid tank, typical of its period.

                          So in the end - Rhomboids!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I voted against the Leo1.
                            you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                            CPO Mzinyati

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                            • #15
                              Voted Leopard 1 to continue my vendetta against the Mark tanks
                              "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

                              --Hávamál

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