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Rnd 3 Grp B - Challenger 1/2 (Britain) vs Leopard 2 (Germany)

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  • Rnd 3 Grp B - Challenger 1/2 (Britain) vs Leopard 2 (Germany)

    Round 3, Group B: Challenger 1/2 (Britain) vs Leopard 2 (Germany)


    The modern Challenger tanks have filled the role of Britain’s premier MBT since about 1983/84 and Challenger 2 is generally regarded as one of the World’s best Main Battle Tanks today. The balance of attributes leans a bit more towards protection than some other modern MBTs but without compromising firepower; and general mobility is still good. There have been modest export sales, to Jordan and Oman. The Challengers have both proved themselves very well in action.

    Germany’s Leopard 2 is widely regarded as one of the World’s finest modern MBTs and it has seen some limited action in Kosovo and Afghanistan. It is conventionally laid out and has been continually improved since its introduction to service in 1979/80. Aside from Germany, this tank is in service with at least 15 different countries. Leopard 2 continues to combine the key attributes of firepower, mobility and protection to a well-balanced and very high degree.

    Question is, which of these very fine tanks should be considered tops for significance and influence?


    Only one of these two candidates can progress to Round 4!

    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #49 - Challenger 1/2 (Britain)

    Service Entry – 1983 (Challenger 1) 1998 (Challenger 2)
    Weight – 62-63 metric tons
    Top Speed – 56 km/h (35 mph) (1); 59 km/h (37 mph) (2)
    Main Armament – 120mm rifled gun
    No. Produced – 420 (1); 450 (approx.) (2)

    For further info, check here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2








    Challenger 2







    Candidate #53 - Leopard 2 (Germany)

    Service Entry – 1979/80
    Weight – 55 – 62.3 metric tons
    Top Speed – 72 km/h (45 mph)
    Main Armament – 120mm smoothbore
    No. Produced – 3,200+

    For further info, check here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2
    http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm















    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!
    90
    Challenger 1/2 (Britain)
    32.22%
    29
    Leopard 2 (Germany)
    67.78%
    61

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 10 Aug 14, 10:27.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    Leopard 2 (Germany) for me.

    Comment


    • #3
      Since Challenger pre-dated Leopard, and Leopard is a copy of Western designs, I went with Challenger. Surprised to see I'm in the minority on this one.
      Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Since Challenger pre-dated Leopard, and Leopard is a copy of Western designs, I went with Challenger. Surprised to see I'm in the minority on this one.
        It's the fantasist's V's the realist all over again. Challenger hands down and all round. It would have the Leopard on toast.

        Paul
        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
        All human ills he can subdue,
        Or with a bauble or medal
        Can win mans heart for you;
        And many a blessing know to stew
        To make a megloamaniac bright;
        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
        The Pixie is a little shite.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Since Challenger pre-dated Leopard, and Leopard is a copy of Western designs, I went with Challenger. Surprised to see I'm in the minority on this one.
          I think not.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT-70

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1

          The Challenger looks more like the Leopard 1 to me, and the Leopard 1 entered service before the Challenger did.

          I could be wrong with Leopard not being a copy of western designs, but I would need some additional information first.

          Oh, and as far as design input go when it came to tank design in the 50's I very much doubt France and Italy had more to contribute than the Germans. Referring to the Leopard 1.

          Edit.
          Leopard 2 for me.
          Last edited by walle; 16 Aug 14, 13:02.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by walle View Post
            I think not.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT-70

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1

            The Challenger looks more like the Leopard 1 to me, and the Leopard 1 entered service before the Challenger did.

            I could be wrong with Leopard not being a copy of western designs, but I would need some additional information first.

            Oh, and as far as design input go when it came to tank design in the 50's I very much doubt France and Italy had more to contribute than the Germans. Referring to the Leopard 1.

            Edit.
            Leopard 2 for me.
            The ultimate significance and influence of any tank is....

            "Brigadier Patrick Cordingley, the commander of 7th Armoured Brigade, said afterwards that “Challenger is a tank built for combat and not competitions"

            For relability in a campaign: Challenger = A* Leopard = ? Survivability: Challenger = A* Leopard = ? Offensive capability: Challenger = A* Leopard = ?

            Paul
            Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 16 Aug 14, 13:22.
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #7
              Leopard 2

              Pruitt
              Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

              Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

              by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                [FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]Since Challenger pre-dated Leopard
                Thus is untrue. Panther even provided this information in the first post.
                and Leopard is a copy of Western designs
                What does this even mean?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DogDodger View Post
                  Thus is untrue. Panther even provided this information in the first post.

                  What does this even mean?

                  Yer proper tanks were being tested on the battlefield. The M60 and Centurion were also doing this whilst the Leopard was posing at the local fete and hard-standing gunnery ranges. Taking on board what other designs and innovations that had actually seen combat which in turn has had an influence on the Leopard 2

                  Paul
                  ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                  All human ills he can subdue,
                  Or with a bauble or medal
                  Can win mans heart for you;
                  And many a blessing know to stew
                  To make a megloamaniac bright;
                  Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                  The Pixie is a little shite.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I can't really differentiate these tanks.

                    The runaway commercial success of the Leopard 2 tells me that there is something seriously wrong with British salesmanship.
                    "Looting would not be tolerated within the Division, unless organised with the knowledge of C.O.'s on a unit basis."
                    - 15/19 Hussars War Diary, 18th March 1945

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Don Juan View Post
                      I can't really differentiate these tanks.

                      The runaway commercial success of the Leopard 2 tells me that there is something seriously wrong with British salesmanship.
                      What would that be? Have you read up on the Challengers reliability and combat worthiness?

                      What was wrong was the expense, not the capability of the salesman.

                      I wonder how much it will cost to have the Urban package put on the Leo?

                      The Challenger in it's bog standard war guise has proven itself in the urban combat environment ( not a good place for tanks in general) as second to none.

                      Paul
                      Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 16 Aug 14, 14:48.
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I voted the Leopard2 as being more influential that the Challenger 2
                        It's more modern that the Challenger2, based on or updated to the newest technology.

                        It's also a much more popular AFV in terms of nations owning and using it that the Challenger2 which no one seems to want other than the UK and Oman.

                        The Leopard 2 is in use by 16 different nations... I'd call that influential.
                        BoRG
                        "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                          It's the fantasist's V's the realist all over again. Challenger hands down and all round. It would have the Leopard on toast.

                          Paul
                          That's not this poll .

                          Challengers have proven themselves over and over again. They will win and keep their crew alive. However, the most aggressive afv that I've seen attack a Leo 2 was a Lada, probably a proto Lada at that.

                          Doesn't matter. This is not a best tank poll. If it were, I would have voted Churchill from round 1, at least in the group 2 stage.

                          Leo 2 is a best seller. The Chally is not. The fact that a load of politicians may have made a mistake is irrelevant.
                          How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                            That's not this poll .

                            Challengers have proven themselves over and over again. They will win and keep their crew alive. However, the most aggressive afv that I've seen attack a Leo 2 was a Lada, probably a proto Lada at that.

                            Doesn't matter. This is not a best tank poll. If it were, I would have voted Churchill from round 1, at least in the group 2 stage.

                            Leo 2 is a best seller. The Chally is not. The fact that a load of politicians may have made a mistake is irrelevant.
                            Please note

                            Yer proper tanks were being tested on the battlefield. The M60 and Centurion were also doing this whilst the Leopard was posing at the local fete and hard-standing gunnery ranges. Taking on board what other designs and innovations that had actually seen combat which in turn has had an influence on the Leopard 2
                            Which includes that of the Challenger.

                            Paul
                            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                            All human ills he can subdue,
                            Or with a bauble or medal
                            Can win mans heart for you;
                            And many a blessing know to stew
                            To make a megloamaniac bright;
                            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                            The Pixie is a little shite.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                              Yer proper tanks were being tested on the battlefield. The M60 and Centurion were also doing this whilst the Leopard was posing at the local fete and hard-standing gunnery ranges. Taking on board what other designs and innovations that had actually seen combat which in turn has had an influence on the Leopard 2

                              Paul
                              Paul, I'm not sure what you're saying here, to be honest. Mountain Man said that Challenger predated Leopard 2, which it does not. He also said that Leopard 2 is "a copy of western designs," which confused me (FRG doesn't count as western??) since it was the first of the late-generation western tanks to enter service, being accepted the year before the M1 and 4 years before the Challenger. I didn't bring combat, the Leopard 1, the Centurion, or the M60 into the debate. Help me out here. Thanks!

                              Comment

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