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Rnd 3 Grp A - PzKpfw IV (Germany) vs M4 Sherman (USA)

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  • Rnd 3 Grp A - PzKpfw IV (Germany) vs M4 Sherman (USA)

    Round 3, Group A: PzKpfw IV (Germany) vs M4 Sherman (USA)


    The PzKpfw IV “took over” from PzKpfw III after the latter proved unable to be readily up-gunned any further. It was meant to serve until sufficient numbers of Panthers could be produced. However, the Panther never fully replaced the PzKpfw IV, meaning that the older tank remained in production and service as a vital part of the German medium tank fleet until the end of the war. It was thus, perhaps (arguably) the most important German battle tank at least for the mid-to-late war period.

    The Sherman received its baptism of fire in British hands near the end of 1942, and was well regarded by them. The virtues of the M4 - which included its wide availability - allowed it to serve very effectively in a variety of environments and on a global scale. There are few Allied tanks in WW2 that can claim to have served in as many theatres and locations; and none in anything like the numbers. The combination of its sound fundamental attributes together with reliability and adaptability and the numbers available, made the Sherman a valuable tool in the Allied effort. The M4 also had a quite noteworthy post-WW2 career.

    So, which workhorse for you? The German Panzer 4 or the American M4?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!

    Which of them is the more significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #25 - PzKpfw IV (Germany)

    Service Entry – 1938
    Weight – 18.5 – 25 metric tons
    Top Speed – 42 km/h (26 mph)
    Main Armament – 75 mm gun
    No. Produced – 8,500 (approx.)

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV














    Candidate #32 - M4 Sherman (USA)

    Active Service Entry – late 1942
    Weight – 30 - 32 tons
    Top Speed – 40 - 48 km/h (25 - 30 mph)
    Main Armament – 75mm gun
    No. Produced – 49,234

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman














    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!



    99
    PzKpfw IV (Germany)
    33.33%
    33
    M4 Sherman (USA)
    66.67%
    66

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 10 Aug 14, 02:52.
    "Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
    Vice Admiral Beatty to Flag Captain Chatfield; Battle of Jutland, 31 May - 1 June, 1916.

  • #2
    voted for PzKpfw IV (Germany).

    Comment


    • #3
      Mark IV. It was actually a better tank than the death trap Sherman "Tommy Cooker".

      Comment


      • #4
        Sherman

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #5
          I went with the Sherman.
          “When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.”
          ― Groucho Marx

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          • #6
            Seeing as the Sherman must have been partly influenced by the MkVI & MkIII, that I went for the MkIV.

            Paul
            ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
            All human ills he can subdue,
            Or with a bauble or medal
            Can win mans heart for you;
            And many a blessing know to stew
            To make a megloamaniac bright;
            Give honour to the dainty Corse,
            The Pixie is a little shite.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sherman - it set the standard for expectations of reliability and ease of maintenance.
              "Looting would not be tolerated within the Division, unless organised with the knowledge of C.O.'s on a unit basis."
              - 15/19 Hussars War Diary, 18th March 1945

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the PzKpfw IV was part of the influence in the M4 itself so... Pz IV for me.
                BoRG
                "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is so close, it hurts.

                  In the end, I went M4, because it convinced Britain that reliability was the most important element of a tank. This led to the Centurion, a tactically effective weapon that could be used in the operational role. The Centurion directly owes its reliability element to the Sherman, despite lack of specific M4 mechanical elements in its design.
                  How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                  Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
                    I think the PzKpfw IV was part of the influence in the M4 itself so... Pz IV for me.
                    There was more French influence, castings.

                    Lets start at the bottom

                    MkIV tracks, Single Pin cast alloy

                    M4 tracks, double pin 'live' rubber

                    MkIV suspension, leaf spring

                    M4 suspension, Volute spring

                    MkIV Engine derived from railroad, air intake louvres on side

                    M4 Engine, aircraft, intake on top

                    MkIV Clutch and brake differential

                    M4 Cletrac Controlled differential



                    OK, the US ignored the Mk IV on the automotive side. Let look above that


                    Mk IV Welded turret, side hatches

                    M4 Cast turret, top hatch for loader

                    MkIV had diameter of 1650mm, low velocity 75mm

                    M4 had diameter of 1753mm,medium velocity 75mm

                    I'm just not seeing the influence, myself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                      This is so close, it hurts.

                      In the end, I went M4, because it convinced Britain that reliability was the most important element of a tank. This led to the Centurion, a tactically effective weapon that could be used in the operational role. The Centurion directly owes its reliability element to the Sherman, despite lack of specific M4 mechanical elements in its design.
                      So It wasn't common sense then! And Britain would have gone on to churn out ever after, unreliable tanks like the Churchill, Cromwell and that busted flush, the Centurion if it wasn't for the Sherman?

                      The Great Tank Scandal may be a good book, but Rude Mechanicals by A.J. Smithers is another to read in conjunction.

                      The MkIV chassis and engine bay lent itself to many conversions and adaptations.

                      Paul
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                        So It wasn't common sense then! And Britain would have gone on to churn out ever after, unreliable tanks like the Churchill, Cromwell and that busted flush, the Centurion if it wasn't for the Sherman?
                        Soviets seemed to think the Canadian built Valentines more reliable than other UK built ones

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Marathag View Post
                          MkIV had diameter of 1650mm, low velocity 75mm

                          M4 had diameter of 1753mm,medium velocity 75mm

                          I'm just not seeing the influence, myself.
                          For what it's worth, the 7.5 cm gun on the Pz.Kpfw.IV is specifically why the medium tanks M3 and M4 were armed with the 75 mm gun M3.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Damn good design (P-4) versus catch up (M4). Damn good design wins.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              M4 it had Numbers, years of serves, range of serves and upgradbliety. Remember the firefly is a M4 and it was so good german AT gunners where told to target it above all other tanks. If only the USA mass produces 17 pounder armerd shermans with diessiel engiens.
                              you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                              CPO Mzinyati

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