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Rnd 2 Grp 2 - Cromwell & Comet (Britain) vs PzKpfw IV (Germany)

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  • Rnd 2 Grp 2 - Cromwell & Comet (Britain) vs PzKpfw IV (Germany)

    Round 2, Group 2: Cromwell & Comet (Britain) vs PzKpfw IV (Germany)


    Arriving a little late in the war, Cromwell served very well in the British cruiser/medium tank role, as alternative equipment to Lend-Lease Shermans, during the last third of WW2. It also formed the basis for development of the Comet, which was an excellent tank overall but really saw quite limited service near the end of the War and into the early post-war period. Both would make way for the Centurion, which was already in development by the closing stage of the conflict.

    The PzKpfw IV “took over” from PzKpfw III after the latter proved unable to be readily up-gunned any further. It was meant to serve until sufficient numbers of Panthers could be produced. However, the Panther never fully replaced the PzKpfw IV, meaning that the older tank remained in production and service as a vital part of the German medium tank fleet until the end of the war. It was thus, perhaps (arguably) the most important German battle tank at least for the mid-to-late war period.

    So, which will it be? The British Cromwell/Comet combo, or the German Panzer 4 workhorse?


    Only one of these two candidates will make it to the next round!

    Which of them is the most significant and/or influential?



    Candidate #20 - Cromwell & Comet (Britain)

    Cromwell

    Service Entry – 1943/44
    Weight – 28 tons
    Top Speed – 64 km/h (40 mph)
    Main Armament – 75mm gun
    No. Produced – 4,016

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwell_tank


    Comet

    Service Entry – 1944/45
    Weight – 33 tons
    Top Speed – 51 km/h (32 mph)
    Main Armament – 77mm HV gun
    No. Produced – 1,186

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_tank







    Comet




    Candidate #25 - PzKpfw IV (Germany)

    Service Entry – 1938
    Weight – 18.5 – 25 metric tons
    Top Speed – 42 km/h (26 mph)
    Main Armament – 75 mm gun
    No. Produced – 8,500 (approx.)

    For further info, see Wiki here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV








    Consider the criteria with care! You decide!



    92
    Cromwell & Comet (Britain)
    17.39%
    16
    PzKpfw IV (Germany)
    82.61%
    76

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by panther3485; 26 Jul 14, 02:11.
    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

  • #2
    PzKpfw IV
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Germany wins this round
      you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

      CPO Mzinyati

      Comment


      • #4
        PzKpfw IV (Germany)

        Comment


        • #5
          The Comet was a better tank than the Panzer IV, but the Panzer IV line was active throughout the war.

          Pruitt
          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

          Comment


          • #6
            More difficult than might appear at first sight: I eventually went for the Cromwell/Comet option.
            "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
            Samuel Johnson.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              The Comet was a better tank than the Panzer IV, but the Panzer IV line was active throughout the war.

              Pruitt
              My thoughts exactly.

              Comment


              • #8
                PzKpfw IV (Germany) for sure,

                Comment


                • #9
                  In terms of design there really isn't much to choose here. But, considering that the Pz IV was designed a decade before the British tanks and managed to fight on with reasonable success to the end of WW 2 I'd give it the nod.
                  By 1943 the British should have recognized the design limitations inherent in the Cromwell / Comet series and been moving to something with some sloped armor, eliminating shot traps and a turret ring that would allow massive up-gunning.
                  Instead, they ended up with essentially a slightly better Pz IV that was reaching the end of its service life just as the similar British vehicles were entering it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ^ nothing to add. Exactly my thoughts...
                    One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Interesting, but most of the arguements I've seen so far are about which was a better tank, as opposed to which was the more influential... I say the PzKpfw IV, but mostly because many of it's features led not only to the development of the weapons it would face later in the war, but it's limitations would fuel designs for the models that would replace it.

                      That's not to say that the Cromwell/Comet series weren't influential... Look at the Centurion, it looks like a Comet and a Churchill had a baby and this was it. The best features of both parents... or something like that anyway.
                      BoRG
                      "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Arthwys View Post
                        Interesting, but most of the arguements I've seen so far are about which was a better tank, as opposed to which was the more influential... I say the PzKpfw IV, but mostly because many of it's features led not only to the development of the weapons it would face later in the war, but it's limitations would fuel designs for the models that would replace it.

                        That's not to say that the Cromwell/Comet series weren't influential... Look at the Centurion, it looks like a Comet and a Churchill had a baby and this was it. The best features of both parents... or something like that anyway.
                        AFAIK this campaign is to find not only the most influential but also most significant Tank. And significance is IMO very dependent on numbers and quality. So being the better Tank is not unimportant.
                        The Christie / LT-38 poll is a good example:
                        The Christie Tanks were very influential while the LT-38 was veeeery significant for German Armored Warfare... Hard to tell who wins.
                        One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hanov View Post
                          AFAIK this campaign is to find not only the most influential but also most significant Tank.
                          Correct.


                          Originally posted by Hanov View Post
                          " ... And significance is IMO very dependent on numbers and quality. So being the better Tank is not unimportant. "
                          Numbers will tend to count towards significance in most cases. Quality, sometimes depending on a range of other variables; such as being in certain key places at critical times and where it can be unquestionably demonstrated that said quality made a very significant difference.

                          The main thing to remember is that these polls are not primarily (i.e. we "must" vote for tank A instead of tank B because tank A was "better") concerned with quality, except for the above.

                          Furthermore, it is possible to think of other factors - beside numbers and quality - that might be seen as significant under certain conditions.
                          Last edited by panther3485; 30 Jul 14, 10:25.
                          "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            In terms of "soft" factors the Cromwell was greatly more advanced than the Panzer IV, with a Merritt-Brown transmission enabling neutral steering, a very powerful 600 hp Meteor engine, a well-proven hydraulic turret traverse steering system etc. All of these would go on to be used in the Centurion, so the Cromwell was clearly more influential than the Panzer IV, which as far as I can tell produced no descendants, and had no sub-systems that appeared on subsequent designs.

                            The Panzer IV was much more significant however, as it was used from the beginning to the end of the war, and did give generally excellent service.
                            "Looting would not be tolerated within the Division, unless organised with the knowledge of C.O.'s on a unit basis."
                            - 15/19 Hussars War Diary, 18th March 1945

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Agreed!
                              One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

                              Comment

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