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Rnd 2 Grp 2 - Churchill (Britain) vs Tiger tanks (Germany)

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  • #16
    My vote here was for the Tiger. The Churchill's were slow and under-gunned, and obsolete even before the end of WWII.
    Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Skoblin View Post
      Gaz, how can you even possibly consider voting against my beloved Tiger....?
      I can't... so my vote goes to the Tiger.
      "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
      Ernest Hemingway.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        My vote here was for the Tiger. The Churchill's were slow and under-gunned, and obsolete even before the end of WWII.
        The Churchill saw sterling work after the war. The Tiger saw razor blades.

        Paul
        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
        All human ills he can subdue,
        Or with a bauble or medal
        Can win mans heart for you;
        And many a blessing know to stew
        To make a megloamaniac bright;
        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
        The Pixie is a little shite.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
          The Churchill saw sterling work after the war. The Tiger saw razor blades.

          Paul
          The general ignorance of the Churchill being displayed makes this a bit of a LOL-thread, tbh.
          "Looting would not be tolerated within the Division, unless organised with the knowledge of C.O.'s on a unit basis."
          - 15/19 Hussars War Diary, 18th March 1945

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          • #20
            Royal Iraqi Army parade, 1957:

            It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

            Косово је Србија!
            Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

            Armored Brigade

            Armored Brigade Facebook page

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            • #21
              The Americans in WWII and Korea thought the Churchill very significant.

              Paul
              ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
              All human ills he can subdue,
              Or with a bauble or medal
              Can win mans heart for you;
              And many a blessing know to stew
              To make a megloamaniac bright;
              Give honour to the dainty Corse,
              The Pixie is a little shite.

              Comment


              • #22
                The Tiger is a WW 2 icon. The Churchill on the other hand was something of an anachronism. An infantry tank more of the 30's soldiering on in the 40's.
                The Tiger certainly had an impact on Allied tank development and was seen as a serious threat while the Churchill served out the war in a pedestrian role of infantry support.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  The Tiger is a WW 2 icon. The Churchill on the other hand was something of an anachronism. An infantry tank more of the 30's soldiering on in the 40's.
                  The Tiger certainly had an impact on Allied tank development and was seen as a serious threat while the Churchill served out the war in a pedestrian role of infantry support.
                  As opposed to the Tiger junk yard scrap. The Churchill still acted in its roll as a front line tank. one that would always get to where it was needed whatever the going, and would also get whole armies to where they needed to go too.
                  ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                  All human ills he can subdue,
                  Or with a bauble or medal
                  Can win mans heart for you;
                  And many a blessing know to stew
                  To make a megloamaniac bright;
                  Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                  The Pixie is a little shite.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                    As opposed to the Tiger junk yard scrap. The Churchill still acted in its roll as a front line tank. one that would always get to where it was needed whatever the going, and would also get whole armies to where they needed to go too.
                    That makes perfect sense. The Churchills were there and so where the crews, mechanics, spare parts etc.

                    You're right that the Churchill has a longer/better service history and was the more reliable vehicle.
                    But it's obvious that you would not see Armour in numbers of the defetead nations - no matter how significant, influential, reliable etc. they were at their time. Assuming Germany would have emerged victorious in WW2 and Britain would have lost the war, it would probably be the other way round. The Churchills would have been a historical marginalia.

                    Also service history is just one aspect when evaluating a Tank. There are plenty of others and IMO the Tigers win in many or at least more other aspects. That's why i voted for the Tigers.
                    One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Don Juan View Post
                      The general ignorance of the Churchill being displayed makes this a bit of a LOL-thread, tbh.
                      ... and yet, even if only one member learns something more about the Churchill as an accidental by-product of participating in these polls and enjoys himself in the process, then surely it is not a complete loss.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                      • #26
                        In the end, my bias towards them aside, many elements of the Tiger I/II carried forward into a number of nations' AFVs.

                        Not as many elements that I can think of were carried forward from the Churchill into future tanks.
                        BoRG
                        "... and that was the last time they called me Freakboy Moses"

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                        • #27
                          If you consider slow turret traverse, low-obstacle clearing difficulties and unreliable engine to be significant and influential in tank design, you should vote for the Tiger.

                          Darn! NATO countries amoured vehicle industries should have had the designs copied and improved in developping its new generations of tanks.

                          Meanwhile, the slow and heavy Churchill was used to develop a series of specialized armoured vehicle - the "Funnies (AVRE, flamethrower, mine warfare etc) - that are still needed today by modern armies, be it dozer blades attached to modern MBTs or specialized engineered vehicles based on MBTs. Would that be significant and influential? You decide.

                          As for being called "obsolete", a bit of research would indicate that the Churchill was a better platform for the same guns used by the Sherman, the preferred tank by the Aussies in fighting in the Pacific and much appreciated by the Allies in fighting the North Koreans with T-34 tanks!

                          Of course, if this is a popularity contest (vs defining the most significant/influential tank) , I would also vote for the Tiger tank!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                            The Churchill saw sterling work after the war. The Tiger saw razor blades.

                            Paul
                            Hmm, I've seen (laid hands on) at least three...one of which was moving. No whiskers removed with any of them.
                            John

                            Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
                              Royal Iraqi Army parade, 1957:

                              Touche'.
                              John

                              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
                                Meanwhile, the slow and heavy Churchill was used to develop a series of specialized armoured vehicle - the "Funnies (AVRE, flamethrower, mine warfare etc) - that are still needed today by modern armies, be it dozer blades attached to modern MBTs or specialized engineered vehicles based on MBTs. Would that be significant and influential? You decide.
                                While many specialized vehicles--and the AVRE was especially important--were built on the Churchill, in the US at least (the only country where I can find a date), tanks with dozer blades can be traced to a January 1942 proposal that sought to decrease losses among bulldozer operators, which predates work in the 79th Armoured Division.

                                As for being called "obsolete", a bit of research would indicate that the Churchill was a better platform for the same guns used by the Sherman, the preferred tank by the Aussies in fighting in the Pacific and much appreciated by the Allies in fighting the North Koreans with T-34 tanks!
                                I thought that the Churchill never fought in the Pacific in World War II? Australia performed trials in mid-1944 versus the Sherman, and the first Churchills ordered by Australia didn't leave England until 10 July 1945. Only 51 were received including the 6 tanks used for trials. I'd be interested to read anything on the Churchill vs. T-34-85 in Korea; could you tell me where you found this? Thanks!

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