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Introduction - Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign

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  • #46
    Last edited by GCoyote; 02 Sep 14, 10:51.
    It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

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    • #47
      I don't know if the answer to this question matters much at this point but I'll ask anyway.

      Panther-
      Could you explain how it is determined which tank will match against which as a new round of voting appears?

      I have been juggling around the final 8 in my mind and see pairings which would, of course, change the outcome of this voting in a very interesting way.
      John

      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by JBark View Post
        I don't know if the answer to this question matters much at this point but I'll ask anyway.

        Panther-
        Could you explain how it is determined which tank will match against which as a new round of voting appears?

        I have been juggling around the final 8 in my mind and see pairings which would, of course, change the outcome of this voting in a very interesting way.
        For Round 1, entirely at my discretion with no initial direct input from any of the members.

        For Round 2, at my own discretion again except this time, the collective content of comments and information coming from other members during Round 1, helped me with many of the choices.

        For Round 3, partly by discretion and partly by "chance". The pairings for the eight tanks in Group A were decided using exactly the same method as Round 2. With Group B however, I worked out three alternative sets of pairings which looked reasonably equally viable. I then wrote the three alternatives on separate pieces of paper, folded them up small and placed them into a box. My 10-year-old grand-daughter was asked to pull one out, and that's the one I went with.

        For Round 4, I deliberately chose the pairings with the aim of getting members comparing tanks across different time groups; "jumping" varying differences of time from one to three periods. I also sought, for the second time, to avoid if reasonably possible having tanks from the same country up against each other (as had happened a good number of times in Round 1) so that for example Sherman would not be up against Abrams; Tanks Mk I-V would not be up against Centurion; and Leopard 1 would not be up against Leopard 2. With those two ideas in mind, the number of possible reasonable (IMO) variations was of course more limited.

        Naturally, variations in pairings do have certain consequences in terms of outcomes and here again, so far as (IMO reasonably) possible I tried to be objective and balanced in my approach. Emphasis on tried, because we are all human.

        Having said all the above, it would be impossible to come up with pairings that please everyone and in the end I wasn't always totally happy with them myself, upon reflection.
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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        • #49
          Thank you.
          John

          Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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          • #50
            Stumbled upon this article today. I thought it may be of interest in this forum about "Most influential/significant tank"

            5 Tanks that Changed the World:

            http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-history-11220

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
              Stumbled upon this article today. I thought it may be of interest in this forum about "Most influential/significant tank"

              5 Tanks that Changed the World:

              http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-history-11220
              Interesting. I'll let other members comment on the inaccurate statements it contains.
              "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
                Stumbled upon this article today. I thought it may be of interest in this forum about "Most influential/significant tank"

                5 Tanks that Changed the World:

                http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-history-11220
                In time/date order my top 5 are currently:

                British MkIV
                French FT-17
                Soviet T-34
                British Centurion
                USA M1 Abrams

                In this contest, I would like to see a MkIV vs FT-17 final .
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                Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                  In this contest, I would like to see a MkIV vs FT-17 final .
                  Well, it's still very early in this Round but if the polling up until now is any guide both of those tanks appear to have good prospects for making the Semi-Final, at least.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                  • #54
                    Round 3 Progress Report

                    Round 3 Progress Report

                    Up to the end of Round 3, we have the following campaign totals:

                    Members participating - 143
                    Votes - 5,057
                    Polls - 56
                    Average participation rate (first 3 rounds combined) - 90.3
                    Average participation rate for Round 3 - 91.9


                    Although quite a few additional members joined us in Round 2 and some more again in Round 3, a number of the members participating in Round 1 and a few from Round 2 seem to have dropped out; or at least become temporarily absent. This is why the participation rate for Round 3 is only marginally higher than for Rounds 1 and 2 despite the substantial increase in members listed.

                    During Round 4, I've noticed a couple of additional members (on top of the 143) have also come in. That's good too, and it would be nice if we could "crack the ton" for participation in Round 4.

                    In any case regardless of the numbers, I have to say I'm tremendously pleased with the way things have been going. Thanks to all who have joined us so far.

                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Capt AFB View Post
                      Stumbled upon this article today. I thought it may be of interest in this forum about "Most influential/significant tank"

                      5 Tanks that Changed the World:

                      http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-history-11220
                      Nick, did you write the Sherman blurb?
                      John

                      Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JBark View Post
                        Nick, did you write the Sherman blurb?
                        I seriously doubt that Nick would ever write such bollocks as this:

                        " ... the Sherman formed the backbone of the U.S. armored force, as well as the British, Free French, Polish and Australian forces. ... "


                        IIRC, we received 3 (yes, three) Shermans and these were used for trials only!
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JBark View Post
                          Nick, did you write the Sherman blurb?
                          No. For a start I would not have said the M4 was too tall, and I would have said the M3 75mm had an excellent HE round, potentially even superior to the heavier M1 90mm round, due to its superior shrapnel characteristics. Along with the German KwK40 and Soviet F-34, I rate it one of the three best tank weapons of WW2 when all criteria are taken into account.

                          I would say the Sherman was starting to become obsolete after Cobra, but for one real exception after the Normandy, it never really had to worry about massed tanks, and therefore did not really need to be upgunned in the vast majority of cases. Mainly for this reason, I think that all this underarmed nonsense is just that. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable due to the enemy strategic situation.

                          As far as NWE/ETO is concerned, after the failure of Market Garden, the West adopted a Broad Front, grind them down policy, to eventually cause cracks in the enemy lines. It took time, but eventually worked. Looking at the British cabinet records, and estimates on supplying their army, the war came to a close earlier than estimated, and by between c1 to c2 months. However, I still feel that the US army would have been better served a Churchill type tank October 44 onwards in the ETO, because of the actual style of warfare carried out. We are looking at a tactical grinding down, rather than an operational breakthrough strategy.

                          Even the PTO, where the weight and different fuel of the Churchill's would see a reduced number in action, say 3 A22's to 4 M4's, we are still looking at the British tanks having significantly better protection and the best cross country/hill climbing ability of any WW2. Further, the Crocadile keeps its 75mm (firing US ammo), unlike US flame tanks. This means a US squadron of 4 Shermans can have a combined total of 4 75mm's and flamethrowers, while Churchills would have 6 such weapons.

                          What we would have seen is fewer men put in direct harms way, in afv's with about twice the thickness of armour, with superior tactical mobility, and combined with 50% greater firepower. Now that was the future direction of the US tank arm after WW2.

                          I should have thought of that when I voted against the Churchill earlier .
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                          Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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                          • #58
                            We churchil lovers forgive you
                            you think you a real "bleep" solders you "bleep" plastic solders don't wory i will make you in to real "bleep" solders!! "bleep" plastic solders

                            CPO Mzinyati

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                              I should have thought of that when I voted against the Churchill earlier .
                              You voted against the Churchill? WTH?
                              John

                              Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                                I seriously doubt that Nick would ever write such bollocks as this:

                                " ... the Sherman formed the backbone of the U.S. armored force, as well as the British, Free French, Polish and Australian forces. ... "


                                IIRC, we received 3 (yes, three) Shermans and these were used for trials only!
                                I'm going to assume you knew I was joking.
                                John

                                Play La Marseillaise. Play it!

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